August 8, 1998
 

Are you an mlooking jumper or a purist?

After reading some of the other responses, and seeing that the poll shows the majority of people favoring jumping and mlook, I decided to, "re-evaluate" my opinion concerning the matter.

It seems that a lot of people really like these two features, two features that I stated _could_ have a negative impact on Doom's gameplay.  I went ahead and downloaded ZDoom and Dosdoom - the best thing I could have possibly done.  My only previous experience with a source port adding jumping and mlook was in Legacy.  Now, don't get me wrong... Legacy is a great port and a polished product.  BUT... I just happen to like the combination of features that ZDoom and Dosdoom offer more so than those offered by Legacy.  In actuality, all three ports are very similar; I think one main reason is that for me, Legacy's controls are screwed up... for some reason I can't move forward and circle strafe simultaneously; it just won't work.  This is all inconsiquential, though.  Just know that Dosdoom is now (officially) my favorite Doom source port available, just barely edging past ZDoom because it runs better ;)

Anyway, I checked it out, and realized that while I was preoccupied with worrying about possible negative side-effects to jumping and mlooking, I didn't realize how fun those two features really are.  They really add a new "dimension" to the gameplay.  I still think mlook looks really weird compared to Quake, but it's still great to have the accuracy of looking up and down, rather than letting Doom do it for you.  And the jumping, well that just changes things around so much.  Especially deathmatch.  Like I said in my previous letter, when Doom/Doom2 were the only games around, I used to wonder what it would be like if those games allowed the player to jump.  It breathes life into all the old Doom and Doom2 levels because now you can do maneuvers that simply weren't possible with the original engines.  In terms of level designers, I think they should keep jumping in mind when they create their levels, but I don't think they should necessitate the jump feature in any of their levels, with the exception of certain megawad projects that are being designed around particular source ports.

The final word?  Mlook and Jump: a match made in heaven (hell? ;)

I want to give my comment and that, of course is what you want to hear.  I really don't think that there should be such a battle over this whole issue. I think you should just design the source port so that there is a config file that you can insert as a peice of data into the wad.  It should be set up such in 'mlook=0 ...' form.  Set it so if your source port doesn't find the file in the .wad, then it, by default, doesn't enable any features such as jumping or mlook.  It would even allow you to specify the gravity correctly/differently for each level.  It would also be a turn on when you start getting more options to start choosing from.  it suits both the purist and the mlooking jumper.

I personally don't see the controversy over the mlook. It doesn't alter gameplay that much, and those who don't like it can easily deactivate it. And if it is implemented as it was in Duke 3D (whose toggle switch allowed you to switch quickly between auto-aim & manual aim), it would give the player the speed of auto-aim, while allowing the more accurate aiming when needed. Had someone thought of useing the mouse to look up/down back then, I'm sure id Software would have used it. I believe the reason that looking up & down were not including in the original game was because of the very impercise & ackward keyboard controls.

Jump & crouching are a little more difficult, since it dramatically changes the gameplay. If these are included,  it should be activated by the Wad author, while allowing the player to activate it by cheating. But given these restrictions, I'd say include it.

So yes on both questions.

MLOOK - yes.
JUMPING - yes.

DOSDoom is now even better then my old favourite Heretic. And the coming DDF stuff sounds great. Keep on going...

Personally, I think the addition of jumping in the Doom engine can have a serious negative impact as well as a positive impact.  Of course, it completely changes the way the original game(s) were meant to be played. Often times the player can have an "unfair" advantage now that he can jump in Doom.  On the other hand, I think jumping is also a very cool option.  I can remember way back when I first played map01 in deathmatch for Doom2, and I wished I could jump up to the starting ledge where the BFG, Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher are, not to mention jumping on to the Plasma pedistal without having to take a lift.  Now that I can do that, it really changes the way that map works in deathmatch.  If id wanted jumping to be in Doom2, the would have put it in.  However, id's design didn't call for such a feature, so they left the ability to jump out.  With Hexen, Raven designed those levels in such a way that jumping was a necessity.  Perhaps this whole ordeal will be cleared up with the upcomming source code merger.  Personally, my favorite port is Boom, followed by Windoom.  Note that neither two of those ports incorporate jumping into the code...
Heheheh if id wanted jumping they would have put it in? Sounds like "if God had wanted men to fly, He'd have given us wings."

As far as mlook goes, I don't think it looks that great in the Doom engine.  I never used the look option in Heretic or Hexen, and quite frankly I don't think it's necessary.  Doom already has auto-aim, so why the need for mlook?  When you use mlook, the graphics become distorted because the engine is not a pure 3d engine like Quake.  I'm a hardcore Quake fan, and I use the "freelook" option. Looking around in Quake (with the mouse) is so natural compared to Doom. I love each game for different reasons; in the case of Doom, I love the perfect gameplay combined with its simplistic interface.  As far as I'm concerned, the "mlook" feature found in some of the Doom ports is purely for "selling their product to the gamers".  There are many ports out there, each one striving to be the best.  By adding such features, the coders are trying to lure in a larger user base.  Of course, this is just speculation :)  However, STILL a possibility.  I'd rather not be bogged
down with trying to manually look up just to aim at a Cacodemon when being chased by four spectres in the middle of Imp and Chaingunner crosssfire... ;)

However, one thing I DO like about the jumping feature is the ability to jump over sprites.  Picture this: Doom2 deathmatch... Map01... You're on the lift by the plasma... You're about to jump off... Whoops!  Some jerk is camping down below, preventing you from jumping.  I think the ports should allow movement over/under sprites WITHOUT the jumping feature, thereby improving on the Doom2 engine, in turn having a "less-dramatic" impact on the original gameplay =)  But that's just my opinion :P

personally i don't use mlook and jumping but i don't see why people will complain if they are in a port if they are disableable i suppose the wad lump seems to be the best way to keep these people happy but that means noone can even try even if they don't end up using the new features until levels are created to use these i suppose you could make a pwad conatining those new lumps avaible seperatly so people could load using that pwad if they wanted to try it but it seems silly if they want to use it it would be easier to have it in the options menu i think a possible solution could come from ddf the defualt player.ddf could have it switched off and if players want it they have to specificly edit the file to turn it on much simpler then a wad lump but doom purists probably still won't like it

No mlook, no jump, we want more of the original DOOM. Perhaps make it a
commandline switch or something

Okay, here's the deal. +mlook in Doom is awesome. Why? Because if you're playing cooperatively, you don't have to worry about blowing your buddy/buddies away when aiming for a monster.. Also, take pain elementals. With mlook and adjustable autoaim, you can kill off the pain elemental rather than have to blast your way through the lost soul spam to get at him. You can kill the monster you want to kill by aiming at that monster.

As for jumping, well.. it's fun, but it breaks maps the way it's currently being done.
You said it--the way maps are currently being done. I like how better 3d engines have resulted in better Doom maps. Case in point: the excellent aesthetic designs in Gothic2.wad look like they have a strong inspiration from Quake 1 & 2. Anybody agree? With jumping, map makers will have to eschew lame waist-high barriers in favor of more realistic barriers. Even in the days before Heretic or Rise of the Triad came out with their then revolutionary looking up & down, I was wanting something like mlook. I hated not being able to look down where I was walking or to look up at some awesome architectural feature. & I really hated helplessly looking at some waist-high barrier & not be able to jump over. That's why Dark Forces was the very first FPS I ever bought the full  version of. Doom blew me away when I first played it because it was an immersive experience, not because it had endearing 2.5d limitations. Anything that enhances that immersive experience is IMO good.

Hate to disappoint you, but I can't really vote either way. Since I never touch the mouse when playing DOOM, mlook is not that interesting to me personally, but I have no objection to the engine providing it for those who want it.

Jumping I think, does matter. One of the most important goals for BOOM was backward wad compatibility. To me this means that jumping (and features like it, with direct impact on gameplay) should not be included unless enabled. If this is not the case then lots of areas in old wads can get entered out of order, and places the author didn't think could ever be entered become accessible, leading to dead ends and bad gameplay. However, if I design a wad employing low gravity, you can bet your booties I'll want a jumping feature. <g>

There may be some confusion about BOOM. BOOM Phase I, by design, was intended to mainly fix bugs and remove limits. This is because we wanted BOOM I to be a good design base for everyone, including the purists. We've always said that BOOM Phase II would incorporate the z-motion features like look up/down, sprite heights, jumping, gravity, flying etc. Lee is a purist, and he was never wild about these features, but even he allowed that as long as they defaulted off unless enabled by a wad lump that he could tolerate it. He wasn't wild about the HUD, or the colored status bar, or weapon recoil, and lots of other things either, but not to the point where he minded greatly, as long as they were options.

Not having the Mlook and jumping in the original Doom tied it down to being like wolfenstein.  Now that products like Legacy have the Jump and MLook Option, Doom is a lot more fun than it used to be.  I say Yes to jumping and mlook.  Whoever says no, can go play the original Doom.

Mlook is good, jumping is bad. Highres is good.

I don't find either mlook or jumping helpful.  I've always played Doom with a keyboard and think mlook is unnecessary.  Jumping is just a braging right in most cases.  Unless levels or TCs take advantage of jumping to get past areas, then jumping is useless.
I used to be a keyboarder, too, & I took umbrage to John Romero calling keyboarders "lamers". I could never understand the hype over mlook until I finally tried the config used by Thresh, Killcreek, John Romero, John Carmack, & hosts of others. I've been a firm believer ever since.

i think u sould have all the stuff

Mlooking jumper

I think the answer is simple... Any new "Ports" of Doomx should have an availible "Check Box" to load all default Doomx settings. In other words, If you don't like it - Don't use it.  :)

I am Definately FOR all new improvements to The best game ever made!

I am a a big Doom fan, and have always though Quake, ect. were inferior games to Doom.  But, this is no reason to not have some of the nicer features to improve what already one of the Top 5 electronic games of all time.  Keeping jumping and mlook away from Doom because isn't it have always been is like keeping interleague play away from major league baseball.  "Trandition" and "purity" are in my mind are very sensitive subjects because they mean different to everybody.  Keeping Doom pure, in my mind is keeping away things that Quake bad, but putting in Quake's good features should make Doom and even superior game to Quake.  Plus, if we add all those wonderful features, what excuse whould Quakers have to say that there game is better?  That poor excuse of a rocket launcher?  I never leaft Doom, I looked at other games like Duke Nukem 3D (a descent game) or Quake (succesful only because you play vis Internet) and thought "if Doom had that It'd run away from those games." Why prevent making a great thing greater? Go Doom! Phew.....
Straight up! But only as long as Doom ports remain lean & mean & don't jack up the system requirements... <COUGHCryptCOUGH>

Yeah, this topic does seem to get some goats, doesn't it?

Personally, I think Mlook is a great idea. It does little to harm gameplay, and adds a perspective on some levels that I find fascinating. The levels just look cooler when you can look up or down, and see a better view. (Throwing ChaseCam in makes it even more dramatic, that's a cool mod) I hope someone finds a way to handle perspective correction (I have a few ideas, but anything past line 3d is difficult for me to code well), so we can get some better range on viewing.

On jumping, a I'm a little more ambivalent.. I like it, provided it doesn't detract from the original gameplay. This essentially means (for my acceptance) you can't jump high, or very far. Legacy's almost got it pinned down how I like it. Low height, just needs longer duration. (You just sorta hop the way they got it now..)
But in DosDoom you can get some serious air jumping off of stairs & ledges! It feels like snowboarding or something. Very exhilirating. But to each his own....

Hell, no, mlook and jumping suck!  THEY SUCK!  IT'S JUST NOT DOOM!
Ummm... sorta ambiguous. Do you like it or not? ;-)

I insist on mlook :)

Jumping... 'sok, but it tends to make it easy to sleaze thru some levels :)

Use the mlook and jump.

Myself, I really do not want stuff like mlook and jumping in DOOM.

It's not entirely "purism". It's more that (and I know from talking to others that I'm not alone in this) I don't have enough arms and legs for the extra controls. The =need= for jumping in Quake made it "work" not fun (aside from all the other things I hated about it). Every time I have to stop and think about my controls, or about an inventory (a la Heretic) or the like, it breaks the flow of the game. Bah!
I hear you, but mlook & jumping need not be difficult AT ALL. Try this config & you will be amazed. You won't be thinking about or juggling any extra controls.

Who hasn't tried to peer over the edge of their screen to see what lies below? :)

Problem #1
I've just checked out DosDoom for the first time and tried out the freelook. The biggest problem with it is the distortion/texture stretching. Maybe some people don't notice this but I immediately fixate on it. The once solid virtual walls now widen at the top/bottom edges and the Doom world seems a little cheaper and less substantial. Alot of  Mlooking makes me queesy and I usually develop a headache in games with this problem (like those based on the Build engine). Jim Dose mentioned a fix for this in either his plan file or a mailing list back when he was working on GLDoom. I honestly haven't followed Doom news in a long time so I don't know if the problem was ever discussed before or after Mlook appeared in DosDoom. The problem isn't non-existant in 3D polygon games like Quake but it isn't nearly as noticeable. Many games try to hide it by seriously limiting your looking range like Hexen for instance. Anyway.. I'm against it wholeheartedly as is.. but wouldn't be if this problem was fixed.
Hmmm... from what I've heard, this is unfixable due to the way Doom renders. I think it would require MAJOR revamping. I honestly never even noticed the distortion.

Problem #2
I haven't deathmatched or even experimented with 2 weapons that may be effected in a negative way: BFG- The secondary blast/tracers do they now have a vertical limit to their cone of influence? Can you fire at the ground  to instantly induce the secondary damage like you can with a nearby wall?
ROCKET LAUNCHER- Can you fire at a players feet like in Quake? To me the Doom rockets were fun to dodge but this becomes more difficult if someones aiming at the ground around me. I don't find this style of RL fighting as fun as the vertically limited original but limiting the rockets to their standard flight would seem lame while looking up or down while firing ..except if the happen to auto-aim in that direction which kind of defeats the advantage of aiming up/down. A possible fix would eliminate auto-aim and make the rockets slightly heat seeking. If a rocket is very near an opponent it could adjust itself  toward them. This would make it difficult
to shoot at a players feet. The rocket wouldn't follow a player around but just curve torwards them if they were near. You could still shoot above a player and to their side just as long as a certain distance was maintained between the rocket and the target. I added an extra player start to a map once to test a rockets auto-aim on the horizontal and when the rocket was near enough to the dummy opponent, it did indeed curve towards them so this wouldn't be that much different from the way Doom already is.

Jumping: (Ignoring the negatives of jumping and Mlooking where you aren't supposed to on existing maps) I don't see any problem with jumping in Doom and was pleasantly surprised at how natural it felt in DosDoom. I could get a running start and jump right up onto objects and even stop forward momentum with a quick tap of the back key. The jumping height seemed perfect and wasn't awkwardly slow or floaty feeling like Quake.

As someone who has been with Doom as well as going ahead with Quake (and being in a clan), I must say that Doom is Doom, and Quake is Quake. Not one of the "2.5-D" games that implemented mouse looking like Duke Nukem and Shadow Warrior did it successfully, as the "feel" in Quake looking just isn't there. And quite frankly, until the "sprite over sprite" limit is removed from Doom as it was in Heretic and Hexen, looking up and down is useless.

As for jumping, I would be opposed to it simply because it destroys so many maps. Authors have long made barriers just a few pixels over 24 so that the DoomGuy couldn't get over, and by jumping that barrier is removed. And jumping JUST 24 pixels is practically nothing.

If I was the one to make a decision like this, I would say to hold off on the movement additions, and simply try and integrate the visual effects planned (like light sourcing, GL, etc.) instead, as that does not affect current and future maps. I've played Doom along with Quake because of the quick compile times and ease of use in designing good levels, and editing is the biggest percentage of Doom players out there. The others are merely guys who get together for LAN partys mainly to
play Quake, but also to enjoy Doom as it was originally made. Every PlanetQuake Beatdown and most of the QuakeCon-ish conventions have always been great places for Dooming.

To end my rant, I would say NO to mouse looking and jumping because Doom just was not designed for such things. If you limit them to keep in conformity, they'll not be very useful. And if you tweak the game a lot specifically to use them, then you'll destroy all the standard maps as well as a lot of the user maps.

I guess I'm a stereotypical Doom purist.  I downloaded Quake shareware when it first came out and went right back to Doom.  I don't think that mlook is necessary in a game like Doom, and I think jumping changes game play in a bad way.  Oh, and yes, I use the Boom port.

I like Mlook, and I like Jumping... But they must be optional FOR THE LEVEL AUTHOR! That means: If the level author want's to allow jumping and mlooking in his
level, he can do it, but if he doesn't allow it, then jumping and mlooking in that level could only be turned on by cheating or by a command line option for a deathmatch.
Good point. I like the idea of an author having "recommended settings" built into his map for turning mlook & jumping on or off, but the player should ALWAYS be able to override those parameters if he so chooses. The idea of being "forced" to play one way or another doesn't sit well with me. I don't want to cram mlook & jumping down anybody's throat (though I will surely recommend it to people!), & I don't want them ripped out of my own hands.

mlook -yes
jump -no

I like Mlook and jumping, as long as there is always an ability to turn them
off...

I do also play all the other games...quake, quake2, and unreal which I think are all really great games.  So, all in all, I do prefer Mlook and Jumping.  I think spices up the doom source alot and gives the players and mappers somthing new... in the means of playing and level editing.

Mlook is a must in Doom, singleplayer is sometimes ruined because of the lack, take thin stairs on map29... Yep, mlook and jump are GOOD.

As a Quaker, as well as a Doomer, i am naturally in support of mlook.  In fact, i can no longer play a 1st person perspective game without it. Mlook is the primary reason i have used DOSdoom for all these months, as well as the reason i haven't even bothered downloading BOOM, despite all its other enhancements.
I am in complete agreement...

Jumping i don't particularly care about...it seems to somehow detract from the original game, considering you can run through some levels almost twice as fast by simply jumping over obstacles, but as long as there's an option to disable it i don't really have a problem.

I think jumping and mlook are great features for Doom! I love being able to take down imps and such in sniper fashion in DOSDoom =) Those who think jumping and
mlook are a bad idea can just turn those features off anyways and stay away from any WADs that might come out that require those features...

I came back to Doom because of DosDoom's Mlook, jumping and hi-rez modes.

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