The DWmegawad Club plays: Valiant

Map20 - “Swept into Immolation”

Great hectic hell map. Felt like a constant running battle, wish I'd found that blue armour sooner though. Especially enjoyed the final showdown in the lava pit, some real chaos to be had there. I love the hell scenery in this episode, very distinctive colour scheme.

Map19 - “The Popes of Roam”

Really cool visual theme - orange-themed hell is uncommon to see, and the tech-y and gothic elements add just enough variation to complement the theme. I guess the whole episode will continue in this spirit, and I don't mind, because as I said, I like the theme. Architecture was as fancy as in all quality skillsaw maps we get here. Gameplay fully focused on "monster evasion/infighting" style without being afraid to include excessively large enemy hordes. I clearly saw that the map was extremely well polished for said "evasion/infighting" style, the problem is that it's not my preferred style out of principle. I kept dying until I chose to finish the map with "resurrect" cheating. I'll probably lower the difficulty level for the rest of this episode, and if the gameplay still turns out to be slaughterish or evasion-style, I will just give up on playing without cheating. I want to see the maps either way.

Map20 - “Swept into Immolation”

Now I play on HNTR. I've enjoyed the map, it was reasonably challenging on this difficulty, although I better just rushed through the final area instead of doing much fighting. Impressive design as always. Nothing particular to point out, maybe just one thing: The final area (since pressing the switch behind blue door) felt really "game-y", all of the lava and rocks crumbled down or raised up precisely to give me challenge / allow me to proceed, without worrying about plausibility of the processes. That's what I see as a downside.

Not playing with the Club this month, but I did just start Valiant (HMP) over the weekend, and it's just amazing. I played MAP06 last night, and was blown away. (Though I could not for the life of me find the last item: even with sprites turned on in GZDoom's automap.)

I'm replaying Valiant from the beginning now, on HMP difficulty, and something is bothering me more than it should. I'm on MAP08 right now, and I'm using the alternate ZDoom hud and when I'm grabbing the skull keys, they register as a keycard in the lower right corner. (?) plus the message says I picked up the red key. looking at the main hud, I notice I have BOTH types of keys in the inventory. Some explanation behind this?

Map21 - “Skindustrial Zone”

Fun theme, and fun gameplay as well (I still play on HNTR). Layout was OK, visuals well polished. This map taught me that Spider Masterminds are vulnerable to splash damage in this wad, and therefore more vulnerable to rockets. That's good to know for further encounters with them. Other than that, nothing stood out as worth noting. While the "SKINTEK pipes everywhere" theme made the map unique, it only affected visuals and nothing else (like, some unusual gameplay idea building upon the theme), and it made the map feel generic. I liked it a lot anyway.

Map22 - “Spiraling into Nether”

On HNTR, this was a relatively easy breather map. Many powerups and many possibilities to run away or hide from the monsters (although there were strong ones among them). I've died several times, but that was due to my carelessness/hastiness. Interesting theme, great looking. I've enjoyed the map. I've exited it with full health and armor and almost full ammo (no backpack).

MAP21: Skindustrial Zone
91% kills, 0/3 secrets

Not much to say about this one, nothing really made much of an impression on me. I guess I like the SKINTEK theme (and some other spots, such as the little open metal wiring cabinets with the flesh in them in the Arch-Vile corridor) but that's about it. Everything else was sorta predictable and 'generic' (for this WAD). The Spider Mastermind fight seemed to be screaming "skip!"

http://www.twitch.tv/johnsuitepee/c/6727710 = part 2 of my playthrough, covering the rest of map 10 followed by maps 11-15 and both secret maps. (UV, episode continuous)

Episode 3 so far is turning out to be quite a good episode, as I've enjoyed all its maps so far!

I don't always appreciate the enemy "sniping" placements, and map 13 had an annoying Pyro Knight placement in the blue door elevator that I did not approve of in the slightest (good thing I had a lot of hp and a plasma gun!), as well as some annoying "snipers" throughout the level.

Otherwise Valiant generally remains fun to play, with creativity abound. I'm quickly discovering skillsaw is a mapper who knows his stuff. I particularly enjoyed map 14, reminded me of that one map from BTSXE2 with the barrels. Map 31 was another good bit of slaughter experience for myself, and also nice to see a secret level that wasn't so cryptically hidden to access for a change on map 15! (I also liked the zombie trap on map 15, very Serious Sam-esque...)

Will Valiant continue to remain fun as I proceed onwards? I continue to hope so!

Map21 - “Skindustrial Zone”

Nice grisly hell-tech scenery. The gameplay starts off with a cheeky revenant punching you up the bum, and from there we launch into a crossfire panic in the typical Valiant style. This map is certainly not stingy with the ammo though. I did a double take when I couldn't pick up a box of rockets because I already had 50. I like a map that gives you enough rockets that you can afford to lob them at passing clusters of imps. The progression here is fairly straightforward, clearing out perched snipers with occasional meaty battles. Other than the start, the biggest threat I faced was the archvile barrel maze, which wasn't actually that hard on the second attempt. The mastermind was easy enough to take on without even a radsuit or blur sphere as long as you don't mind losing a bit of health in one of the painful crannies. Very fun map.

Map22 - “Spiraling into Nether”

This map kills my laptop in zdoom, but i struggled through it. I started off in the section running about in lava, which I managed to survive thanks to the initial ammo and megasphere. The subsequent areas gave me trouble with the arachnorb ambushes and lost souls, I'd used up all the plamsa and had to risk using rockets on them. Wasn't looking good for the last key, but a secret megasphere saved my bacon. I really like the style of this map, chaotic cyber-hell mess. Shame it struggles to run in places. By the very end I had zero ammo and had to just run for it leaving stuff alive, guess I wasted a lot.

Suitepee said:

I don't always appreciate the enemy "sniping" placements

Projectile snipers just force you to move around more, which is a good thing, really.

AD_79 said:

Projectile snipers just force you to move around more, which is a good thing, really.

Only as long as you can kill them at some point, which to be fair Valiant has allowed me to do so thus far for the most part. I have seen some awkwardly placed "snipers" in the past though, mostly chaingunners being the worst culprit.

They're still fine even if you can't kill them, because if you clear everything else out but there's a few snipers left over, generally you can just ignore those (unless maybe they're hitscanners). Besides, are you seriously complaining about something which makes the map better? :)

MAP22: Spiraling Into Nether
100% kills, 0/1 secret

Not what I expected upon first glance... kinda thought it would be a freeform-type deal where all the denizens are released at once and it's up to the player to run around like a lunatic from spot to spot, slowing taking them all out. But instead it's split up into three discrete sections, each with a key to grab. I didn't really like the yellow or blue key segments - too many aerial snipers and not enough room to move (plenty of airspace over lava, but not much for the player to run around in). All of the lost souls here are just purely annoying, and I found many points where even stopping for one instant got me a facefull of arachnorb shots. Thankfully, the red key section is a lot better, since it relies more on ground enemies as obstacles with imp snipers, rather than limited ground (though there are some airborne enemies). Either way, the level didn't really click for me. Interesting visuals though with the platforms in the lava suspended in the void.

Unholy shit, time to do some catching up, scramble scramble scramble etc.

Map 17 -- Precipice - 101% Kills / 80% Secrets - FDA
While a few different maps in this set seem to invite certain comparisons to Sandy Petersen's "The Chasm" from folks, this is the one where that comparison is most apt, I reckon; the majority of the gameplay, be it proper combat or pure environment traversal, is framed around the central concept of navigating on precarious footing over the harmful toxic slurry that was once one of the planet's great rivers, via narrow catwalks and a variety of platforming sequences, from the mundane to the more gripping, ala the crusher-hopping sequence near the level's close. I suppose a reasonable argument could be made that the level is broadly similar to map 08 (which I didn't really care for) in many ways, but I feel like the general concept of a series of hazardous obstacle courses is executed a lot better in this case, perhaps because the combat element seems like it's married to the inconvenient terrain in a much more natural way, or perhaps I should just say in a more palatable way. Incidental combat while one is moving through the tangles of jagged metal that form a sort of path over and through the toxic terrain is fairly light and fairly rare, and so in that sense I suppose it's not uniformly true that the battles and the environment always have much to do with each other; many big chunks of combat exist as setpieces in simple areas purely for the sake of combat, ala the hidden kamikaze moshpit or things of that nature (can't believe how badly I almost screwed that one up, incidentally), acting more like periodic breaks from the platforming than an additional layer of challenge integrated with them (though I suppose the platforming could just as easily be seen as the rest breaks from the action, depending on one's propensities).

In some ways I suppose this does leave me wondering what might have been, but overall I felt that staggering the gameplay style like this led to more satisfying battles than the up/down rhythm of running obstacle courses under duress and then engaging in some 'vengeance janitoring' that characterized so much of map 08. More importantly, in the few instances where Skillsaw aimed for a more genuine integration of combat and the precipice concept, I feel like the final product is pulled off fairly well, ala the red key setpiece--racing along the narrow catwalks while prioritizing snipers and gradually building more footing is suitably tense without levying too much inconvenience should you loose your footing (e.g. it's really quick/easy to get right back into the action, again contrasting with map 08, which often involved some circuitous backtracking to get back in the thick of things), and the careful introduction of new monsters throughout the fight maintains the sense of soft space restriction even as the actual footing becomes more stable; the elite mancubi receive their proper introduction here, and the smothering spread of their fire attacks suits the simple battle space well.

I suppose at least some small element of my more favorable impression of this map vs. map 08 also has something to do with aesthetics; much as is the case with The Chasm, the grand scale (both vertically and laterally) and open vistas suit my aesthetic tastes better than the more compartmentalized look of map 08, even if the route itself is not actually quite as clever. On that point, I think I would go so far as to say that I found this to be the best-looking map in E3 up to this point, its scope and expanse adding the extra bit of 'verve' to what is otherwise probably the least thematically striking of Valiant's episodes (many would probably argue that that description is more fitting of the super-clean concrete parking-garage look of E1, but I guess I've always been a real sucker for the blue/grey combo).

Map 18 -- Crush Depth - 122% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
If my number one tip for getting off to a good start in any given new map is to always check directly behind you before you set out, I guess my number one tip for maybe tilting the odds a little bit in your favor in longer mapsets is to always watch the idle demos if the author(s) bother to replace them--that's how I immediately knew what to do at the start of this lively hot mess of a map (I guess that means the above recording is not a fullblooded FDA, but sue me!), which definitely left me with a palpable impression that it will be recognized as one of Valiant's 'signature' maps in years to come.

Another sprawling three-key affair, 'Crush Depth' is a fine example of a linear map that doesn't seem like one--you need to get the three keys in a prescribed order, but the setpieces that house them are located in an expansive subterranean playground rife with optional content, and the player is given a great deal of license to explore to his/her heart's content before going about the business of actually completing the level (I think I ended up seeing/doing something like 80% of what there is to see and do before using the red key, thus setting me off on the final mandatory 20% of the map). This exploratory bent combines with a spacious layout and a rather robust monster population to make for an action-intensive outing where you're constantly stirring up fresh trouble while wandering (albeit usually at a dead run) into new area after new area packed with goodies (and hellspawn); after dicking around on the main tower for a while, I ended up going on quite the sojourn down in the pernicious green wonderland below, ultimately emerging topside much more well-armed and on a significant adrenaline high, if a bit worse for the wear physically. Exploring as much as you can is very much worth doing, not just for the entertaining battles you'll encounter, but because many choice implements of destruction can only be located in this way, most notably the SSG, which is very conspicuous in its absence given the relatively light bullet supply and the fact that the RL is not simply spoonfed to you when you first break out onto the well-populated outer deck.

Broadly speaking, a lot of things didn't go particularly well for me on this first run; it took me a few minutes to find the rocket launcher, and quite a while to find one of the SSGs, and I had several sub-20% health moments, largely due to my own ineptitude, e.g. my not taking the megasphere on my first trip through the timed platforming run on the northwest side--I didn't intentionally skip it, I literally whiffed trying to grab it while running by, very nearly resulting in my death during the game of king of the hill with the dastardly vile-twins that ensued soon after. The dual-spider trench also didn't go my way; the blur sphere protected me from the spiders' minigun fire but also negated the easy opportunity to get them to scuffle with each other, and I found the modified imps' attacks much more difficult to dodge based on reaction alone. Even the simpler stuff gave me some trouble, e.g. because it took me so long to find the RL and thus to actually confront the two viles that guard the red key, one of them got bored and wandered back into the heart of the main tower, amusing himself by raising a number of ghost revenants that I was compelled to carefully splash to death--didn't want the ethereal bastards popping up at an inopportune moment later in the level.

I guess my luck turned around at the end, though....a member of the final coven of viles attacked me almost instantly upon materializing, thus alerting me to the group's presence and allowing me to decisively choke them off from behind the first layer of crushers. Upon closer inspection, this final encounter seems to have the potential to be EXTREMELY nasty, far moreso than pretty much anything else in the mapset up to this point, really: assuming you're not playing in ZDoom (or maybe the ghost-rez behavior is forced via MAPINFO or something?), if you don't realize the viles have appeared behind you, or if you flee from them into the network of pumping machinery, what ends up happening is they hit the first layer of crushers and start resurrecting a veritable army of ghost monsters (turns out the 100+ monsters who die off-camera early on are part of a devious plot, whodathunk?), who are very difficult to dispose of efficiently without great risk to life and limb given the suffocating and hazardous confines of the machinery--certainly a more harrowing conclusion than what E1 and E2 offered, at any rate, even if you do manage to kill the vile-rush early.

All kinds of good stuff here, lots of running room, lots of bloodshed, lots of exploration, all manner of interesting little setpieces, and even a further consolidation/refinement of the 'dangerous environment' element that's been such a big part of the back half of this third episode. Excellent map, easily the best in the episode.

Complevel 11 disables ghost monsters, so that's not an issue.

I don't believe that's the case. I recorded that FDA with the ghost revenants on -cl 11, after all.

Are you 100% sure on that? I played map 05 at -complevel 11, had a Vile resurrect a crushed monster at that trap on the upper-central area, and didn't get a ghost. Also, I know that -complevel 9 disables ghosts, although I don't know if ghost behavior is one of those weird things MBF changed after Boom.

...Fuck, does anyone have a full list of what -complevel 11 does? I can't find a list for that anywhere on the internet.

I'm positive. For a quick/easy litmus test, load up Requiem, warp to map 23, and IDDQD/IDFA your way to the yellow skull. Only takes 60 seconds or so, and voila, ghost nazis.

I mainly remember MBF for its more overt features (helper dogs, the ability to enable some Doom beta features, and whatnot) rather than its simulation details, although if I'm not mistaken that 'torque simulation' effect on dead bodies and the like (which I'm very fond of, incidentally) has its roots there, and the 'siamese monster' bug (when a vile resurrects a monster inside of himself, inside of another monster, inside of the player, etc.) may as well.

Weird; I just tried cl 11 and cl 2 in this wad (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080402205111/doom/images/7/7d/RESRPAIN.WAD) and got a ghost PE in cl 2 but not 11 (in cl 11, I just got a regular Pain Elemental that wouldn't clip through the bars/wall, which is kinda strange itself...).

Unless this is some weird version quirk.

EDIT: Just checked HR26 and Requiem23, same result in both cases -- ghosts in cl2, no ghosts in cl11, so it's not just Pain Elemental weirdness.

DOUBLE EDIT: More research shows that unless ZDoom has changed their minds on this since 2009 (possible!), you can't actually get ZDoom to create ghost monsters except for a hard-coded list of maps (Hell Revealed 26, Requiem 23, Hell to Pay 14 and 22, Icarus 24, Plutonia 2 32), regardless of compflags and MAPINFO. The cvar that the user can set (and can be set in MAPINFO) only allows Viles to ressurect crushed monsters, but they come back with full "normal" collision behavior. More info: http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23967

TRIPLE EDIT: Still more research discovers that MBF works like prboom when it comes to ghosts; it's an option, and defaults to "no ghosts". If you have a prboom-plus version where you're getting ghosts at cl11, it's a bug.

Map23 - “Genocide Motor”

Another one with hardcore enemies but relatively easy and casually fun gameplay thanks to loads of health and powerups on HNTR. MAP20 and 21 were harder on this difficulty level. Theme hasn't changed since the last map, but it's still impressive to me. I couldn't spend time sightseeing though, I felt a need to keep moving to avoid damage. Kinda great map, kinda forgettable as well, though. Only the theme is memorable.

MAP23: Genocide Motor
100% kills, 3/3 secrets

It'll draw a lot of similarity to MAP22 just because of the shared aesthetic (lava islands floating in a void with SKINTEK buildings) but it also plays pretty similarly too - teleport to the separate islands to pick up weapons and the three keys in self-contained setups, then exit. I probably like this one a bit more than MAP22 just because most of the setups are a bit more interesting, though I still think the red key one in last map was the best overall. On the whole, actually pretty easy to play as long as you don't get lazy and eat a bunch of sniper damage.

Never gonna catch up now but never mind.

10

Probably my least favourite map. Looks great and some good moments but lots of piecemeal combat while inching along a narrow strip of non damaging floor. Layout was looser and mapflow less interesting than previous maps but this sometimes goes with the territory with sprawling cave maps. The weird chain and flesh structures at the end were not very pleasing to the eye but I often find that's the case with those textures.

11

Pretty cool fortress island sort of map. A three key scavenger hunt with some decent setpiece and dangerous use of the flaming barons. I don't have a great deal to say about this one - just a solid level.

12

Wicked start on this one. It felt a little like a resurgence map how I had to run around the courtyards clearing out monsters until I had thinned it out enough to take a breath. I reckon this is much harder on pistol start as I was rocket spamming like crazy. This was the bat part of the map for me after this it was not particuarly memorable although still fun. I do remember feeling one of the AV setup was to similar to one in the previous map but this is a pretty minor complaint. Possibly goes on just a tad longer than it needed to but great stuff all the same.

Map23 - “Genocide Motor”

This one gave me a bit of a Sunder vibe, maybe because of the music track, but i think its also the abstract nature of the scenery and the segmented press-switch-get-battle structure of the gameplay. In actual gameplay terms its completely different though, the fights are low-key but close quarters, and can be tackled in any order you fancy. Difficult but always possible, I managed most of them ofter a couple of goes I think. Fun stuff, especially the gauntlet/telefrag run.

Cynical said:

TRIPLE EDIT: Still more research discovers that MBF works like prboom when it comes to ghosts; it's an option, and defaults to "no ghosts". If you have a prboom-plus version where you're getting ghosts at cl11, it's a bug.

Hmm, I suspect this must be a versional thing, then. I can't remember the last time I needed to use -cl 11 with PrBoom+ (generally I run Eternity in WADs like these unless I'm recording .lmp files), and so perhaps it's a recent change, but the version I'm running now reliably produces ghosts in all scenarios designed around them. That version is 2.5.1.4 (which is currently a test build, IIRC), which the Valiant textfile specifies as necessary for successfully running the WAD; perhaps this alteration of default simulation behavior is one of the reasons why this specific version is required? In any case, I highly doubt this version's capacity for creating ghosts in -cl 11 is a 'bug' per se; suffice to say, there is simply no way that the scenario in the final room of Valiant's map 18 was NOT designed around the ghost monster concept: within the first few seconds of the map 118 pre-placed monsters are killed in that area via a combination of auto-cycling crushers and a carefully positioned barrel-chain, and about 70 of these are conspicuously crushed into ghost-able stains (while those killed by the barrel-chain create the initial pile of corpses that inevitably meatshield for the vile coven before they reach the start of the crusher-field). All of this is far too deliberate in setup to simply be an accident or oversight. ;)

Map 19 -- Popes of Roam - 102% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA, 1 death
Well well, this one certainly gets one's blood moving. "Run or die" is the order of the day here, a cheeky little game of cat and mouse with you playing the 'mouse' to the four cyberdemons' 'cat.' The complication, of course, is that the rocky hills surrounding the small shrine where you first awaken to this land of brimstone are littered with all manner of infernal vagrants, who have a nasty tendency to get in the way as you're scrambling about in a panic trying to avoid being crushed like a grape by one of the rocket-launching skyscrapers; the obvious solution, of course, is to turn the lesser demons against the cyberdemons, but that's easier said than done given that it's difficult to keep track of all four of them at once, so you're constantly looking over your shoulder in paranoia and fearful of lingering in one place for long enough to easily orchestrate choice infighting (or at least it was the case for me). It all tends to work itself out in the end if you can survive for long enough, of course, and for that we must credit the subtle but very carefully crafted layout, which facilitates unpredictable monster movement and juuuuuust the right amount of player maneuverability in equal measure; most of the areas have more than one avenue of entrance/exit to facilitate constantly staying on the move and escape when one side of the map is getting too crowded, but a few weapons or other key objectives are positioned in areas where it's easier to be cornered if you're not careful, adding a palpable touch of tension to the proceedings (incidentally, I have NO idea how I managed to extricate myself from that dead end at about 4 minutes into the second attempt, I thought I was a goner for sure).

Incidentally, actually killing everything in this map with any degree of efficiency definitely requires some smart use of infighting, setting it apart from other maps in the WAD in that sense....well, I say 'smart', but how smart do you have to be when a lot of it is practically guaranteed? Anyway, while there are enough weapons and ammo strewn about to save you from having to adopt a rigidly pacifistic style, there's nowhere near enough for you to kill everything yourself. I did achieve maxkills on the second attempt, but I think I had something like 4 shells left when exiting. Not '4 shells and ____', just the 4 shells. The cyberdemons killed something like 150 of the 180+ monsters, and I squandered nearly all of my ammo killing them and the pile of ultra-fatsos in the secret area, so suffice to say it's very tightly-balanced, presenting a refreshing optional challenge in a WAD that is generally tuned towards the player-coddling side as far as its ammo/supply balance goes.

Map 20 -- Swept Into Immolation - 107% Kills / 50% Secrets - FDA
Right, so it seems I didn't actually mention the aesthetics whilst prattling on about the previous map, but that's okay, as this map presents a unique opportunity for doing so. As others have already stated, the Tang-and-Tiramisu hellscape theme of this fourth episode is quite striking and lends the scenery a different feel than that which usually characterizes the traditional 'fire and brimstone' Hell theme (which these maps very much are, if you think of them in terms of materials rather than in terms of colors); somehow I think it makes the landscape look less 'firey' (despite the prevalence of lava) and more like a surreal alien desert of sorts, but maybe that's just me. Dotted here and there amidst the rocky landscape are massive techno-gothic buildings of cream-colored marble, dark metal, and lurid neon filigree that all seem to have a decidedly cathedralesque aspect about them despite their differing shapes; the skintech elements here and there are something of a new addition, but generally speaking, all of this constitutes Skillsaw's unique brand of Hell, as previously seen in the final episode of Vanguard--very much feels like returning to a familiar place in that respect.

This thematic similarity to those older Vanguard maps was for me particularly pronounced in this case, as 'Swept Into Immolation' felt like nothing so much as a homage to Vanguard's hell episode, condensed into a single map. The architecture of the main cathedral, with its sturdy filigreed buttresses, selection of decks/cupolas, and its pit/obelisk core, is something like an amalgam of the defining features of many of the most prominent landmarks in Vanguard-hell, and the eastern firewalking expedition that closes out the map is heavily redolent of the descent into the network of lava caverns at that mapset's climax. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this--there are certainly many salient differences between the setups here and those in Vanguard (for example, the lava field in this case is one contiguous arena of sorts, with very little escape from the burning brimstone)--but I suspect the presence of so many sights and so many fights that recall those from the older episode in general outline all showing up together in this map can't be entirely my imagination.

Generally speaking this is not actually a terrible brutal map (just as Vanguard-hell is not a terribly brutal proposition ;) ), with a lot of the danger eliding more from its ability to instill panic or hesitation in the player by means of suddenly dropping them into uncomfortable scenarios, from the early revenant-deadfall en route to the first skull-key, to the entire field dissolving in a lake of fire as howling kamikazes and other miscreants swarm from out of nowhere like Lakotas and Arapahoes at Little Bighorn during the final act. As per usual, via my bumbling I made things appear much more difficult than they really are, taking approximately 74 years to find a chaingun, severely good-at-Dooming (TM) myself at one point, and then abandoning higher brain functions for several straight minutes while trying to make my way out of the lava field towards the exit, but players with approximately half of a brain in their heads and some decent run-n-gun skills should do just fine, as in contrast to the episode opener there is both plenty of playspace and plenty of choice artillery to utilize.

Nice little nostalgia trip, and it turns out it's not the only one. ;)

Demon of the Well said:

Hmm, I suspect this must be a versional thing, then. I can't remember the last time I needed to use -cl 11 with PrBoom+ (generally I run Eternity in WADs like these unless I'm recording .lmp files), and so perhaps it's a recent change, but the version I'm running now reliably produces ghosts in all scenarios designed around them. That version is 2.5.1.4 (which is currently a test build, IIRC), which the Valiant textfile specifies as necessary for successfully running the WAD; perhaps this alteration of default simulation behavior is one of the reasons why this specific version is required? In any case, I highly doubt this version's capacity for creating ghosts in -cl 11 is a 'bug' per se; suffice to say, there is simply no way that the scenario in the final room of Valiant's map 18 was NOT designed around the ghost monster concept: within the first few seconds of the map 118 pre-placed monsters are killed in that area via a combination of auto-cycling crushers and a carefully positioned barrel-chain, and about 70 of these are conspicuously crushed into ghost-able stains (while those killed by the barrel-chain create the initial pile of corpses that inevitably meatshield for the vile coven before they reach the start of the crusher-field). All of this is far too deliberate in setup to simply be an accident or oversight. ;)

This confuses me even more, because I'm running 2.5.1.4.

At any rate, the textfile recommends ZDoom as the "correct" source port (the last boss needs Decorate to avoid having visual glitches), which, as mentioned above, will never create ghosts regardless of MAPINFO/compflags, aside from small hardcoded maplist. So, why 70 of the monsters were conspicuously crushed is beyond me, unless this was just a case of the author totally overlooking his target port's emulation (or lack thereof) of vanilla bugs.

EDIT: According to this thread (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/source-ports/56474-how-do-the-various-ports-handle-the-ghost-monster-bug/), all Boom-descendant complevels should have no ghosts.

I believe what we see in Valiant is many of the practical hurdles to trying to make a very modern WAD with certain bells and whistles as port-agnostic as possible. Indeed, the selection of a relatively uncommon PrBoom-plus complevel is probably indicative of that. IIRC, Skillsaw himself recently said that some of the cross-port compatibility was more or less shoehorned into the project near the end of its development cycle, although specific details escape my memory at the moment. I suppose there's something of a conflict of feature priorities at work here, in that ZDoom and Eternity (which are named as the 'ideal' ports for experiencing Valiant, as you say) support a variety of aesthetic niceties (e.g. the episode selection menu), but PrBoom-plus firmly remains the ideal port for demo recording, and most high-profile modern projects are developed under the assumption (probably a very reasonable/astute one, mind you) that catering to the demo scene is crucial to a WAD's lasting success. Having a designed encounter that will function differently in one of the target ports (Eternity will also handle this ghost scenario correctly, note, and without the 'siamese monster' bug that occurs in -cl 11 to boot) is a little unusual but not really unprecedented, especially given that simulation differences in the ZDoom family of ports vs. most of the other major ports are something of a fact of everyday life as it is (it crops up regularly in these DWMC threads, even regarding setups not designed as port-specific sideshows).

Edit: I should say Eternity CAN be made to enact the ghost scenario; it's one of the ports where ghost monsters are a toggle-option.

Map 21 -- Skindustrial Zone - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
Hey, look, it's a business park. And in Hell, imagine that....Fairly posh one, too, what with all of the velour upholstery and Dahmer-Bauhausian architecture everywhere, clearly this is taking place in one of Hell's more whitecollar prefectures--I half expected to round a corner and see a P. F. Chang's nestled in between a couple of the hellish highrises (presumably one specializing more in soylent green than tofu, but I digress).

I must say, I found the visuals to be a lot more memorable than the actual gameplay in this case. I just got done declaring a little while ago that "Valiant E4 Hell = Vanguard Hell!", but the skintech and SPHOT texture combo that predominates in Skindustrial Zone feels fresh and different while still fitting in naturally with the more Vanguardian theme that bookends the middle stretch of the episode, I suspect the continued use of grimy metal trim and the prevalence of the open ocher sky has a lot to do with this. The juxtaposition of blood red masonry with death-pale stretched hides and copper-plated tech circuitry makes for an unusual color combination; red and green, red and more red, and (since the advent of the CC4 resource pack) red and black tend to be the dominating color schemes of most traditionally-styled Hell maps, so this "ashen and blood" look is something of an outlier. Another thing that struck me about the overall visual style is that, while there are significant instances of trademark Skillsawsian angled architecture in evidence (most notably the SSG pavillion and the elevated central causeway that forms the 'spine' of the main building), most of the structures are more freeform and organic in contour, kind of like he applied the design basics that he usually employs in making natural terrain to more of the artifice structures, lending the surroundings an extra bit of queasy bio-organic aspect.

As aforesaid, much of the combat seemed somewhat makework by the standards of this mapset--running start (which I played very badly, it's a wonder I survived), regular crossfire scenarios (this time focusing more heavily on 'trons and mancs than imps, I suppose) as the player climbs about on the elevated central structure, a couple of sudden violations of personal space here and there. The two standout encounters are the spiderdemon's yellow skull hideaway and the weird upstairs 'cubicle' area with the initially caged arch-viles. I felt that the former worked quite well, a very intelligent use of both the blursphere and radsuit powerups in combination with little real cover and a tight space to make for a genuinely interesting encounter with one of the game's least versatile beasts. The latter, well....I guess I don't get it. Maybe the viles are supposed to make you run away in a panic? As it is, the convenient clusters of barrels prevent them from flanking you unless you allow it or screw up badly, and it's not too tough to choke them off the RL.

Cynical said:

If you have a prboom-plus version where you're getting ghosts at cl11, it's a bug.

Probably just different settings. MBF allows changing the behavior of some stuff, for instance you can disable sectors with friction if you want. So no bug here, just customization.

Cynical said:

Weird; I just tried cl 11 and cl 2 in this wad (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080402205111/doom/images/7/7d/RESRPAIN.WAD) and got a ghost PE in cl 2 but not 11 (in cl 11, I just got a regular Pain Elemental that wouldn't clip through the bars/wall, which is kinda strange itself...).

Unless this is some weird version quirk.

EDIT: Just checked HR26 and Requiem23, same result in both cases -- ghosts in cl2, no ghosts in cl11, so it's not just Pain Elemental weirdness.
[...]
TRIPLE EDIT: Still more research discovers that MBF works like prboom when it comes to ghosts; it's an option, and defaults to "no ghosts". If you have a prboom-plus version where you're getting ghosts at cl11, it's a bug.

Oh dear, where to start?

The proper link to the WAD you linked to is RESRPAIN.WAD.
And here is a "-complevel 11" demo on that WAD with a ghost PE noclipping through the bars. Plays to the intermission screen with WinMBF. Magic!
Stating that MBF works like Prboom is like saying that MSDOS 6.22 operates like DOSbox. It's the other way around: Prboom can work like MBF.
If MBF has ghost resurrection as an option, why wouldn't it be an option in Prboom(-plus)?

Cynical said:

does anyone have a full list of what -complevel 11 does? I can't find a list for that anywhere on the internet.

You can make your own list using Prboom-plus' source code. Here's the relevant section of g_game.c to get started, with extra line breaks for better readability:

/* cph -
 * G_Compatibility
 *
 * Initialises the comp[] array based on the compatibility_level
 * For reference, MBF did:
 * for (i=0; i < COMP_TOTAL; i++)
 *   comp[i] = compatibility;
 *
 * Instead, we have a lookup table showing at what version a fix was
 *  introduced, and made optional (replaces comp_options_by_version)
 */

void G_Compatibility(void)
{
  static const struct {
    complevel_t fix; // level at which fix/change was introduced
    complevel_t opt; // level at which fix/change was made optional
  } levels[] = {
    // comp_telefrag - monsters used to telefrag only on MAP30, now they do it for spawners only
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_dropoff - MBF encourages things to drop off of overhangs
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_vile - original Doom archville bugs like ghosts
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_pain - original Doom limits Pain Elementals from spawning too many skulls
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_skull - original Doom let skulls be spit through walls by Pain Elementals
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_blazing - original Doom duplicated blazing door sound
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // e6y: "Tagged doors don't trigger special lighting" handled wrong
    // http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1411400&group_id=148658&atid=772943
    // comp_doorlight - MBF made door lighting changes more gradual
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_model - improvements to the game physics
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_god - fixes to God mode
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_falloff - MBF encourages things to drop off of overhangs
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_floors - fixes for moving floors bugs
    { boom_compatibility_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_skymap
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_pursuit - MBF AI change, limited pursuit?
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_doorstuck - monsters stuck in doors fix
    { boom_202_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_staylift - MBF AI change, monsters try to stay on lifts
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_zombie - prevent dead players triggering stuff
    { lxdoom_1_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_stairs - see p_floor.c
    { boom_202_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_infcheat - FIXME
    { mbf_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_zerotags - allow zero tags in wads */
    { boom_compatibility, mbf_compatibility },
    
    // comp_moveblock - enables keygrab and mancubi shots going thru walls
    { lxdoom_1_compatibility, prboom_2_compatibility },
    
    // comp_respawn - objects which aren't on the map at game start respawn at (0,0)
    { prboom_2_compatibility, prboom_2_compatibility },
    
    // comp_sound - see s_sound.c
    { boom_compatibility_compatibility, prboom_3_compatibility },
    
    // comp_666 - emulate pre-Ultimate BossDeath behaviour
    { ultdoom_compatibility, prboom_4_compatibility },
    
    // comp_soul - enables lost souls bouncing (see P_ZMovement)
    { prboom_4_compatibility, prboom_4_compatibility },
    
    // comp_maskedanim - 2s mid textures don't animate
    { doom_1666_compatibility, prboom_4_compatibility },
    
    //e6y
    // comp_ouchface - Use Doom's buggy "Ouch" face code
    { prboom_1_compatibility, prboom_6_compatibility },
    
    // comp_maxhealth - Max Health in DEH applies only to potions
    { boom_compatibility_compatibility, prboom_6_compatibility },
    
    // comp_translucency - No predefined translucency for some things
    { boom_compatibility_compatibility, prboom_6_compatibility },
  };