TNT: Revilution . 2 small to medium maps wanted

Do you guys still need a second small map? I'm pretty sure I was tho only one to make a map when Kyka asked so I'm sure that you do. I have a map that I started working on awhile back, but then I got distracted by other things, it wouldn't take me too long to finish it up for this project though.

I think it's likely that some more map slots will open in future, regardless of if the second map was made, so feel free to make another one.

By the way, your MAP02 was the last thing I was sent. Since I didn't hear from Kyka again after replying to him, I have no idea if my feedback on that map got to you or not. Really, I should have just sent it to you to begin with..

Anyway, it's a fine map, appropriately sized for a MAP02, though it seemed on the difficult side. I couldn't get past the start area on UV without the SSG secret. Admittedly, I'm not a UV player, but as a second map, just that first area seemed abnormally difficult. That was really the only gripe I had, nice work :D

I think it's likely that some more map slots will open in future, regardless of if the second map was made, so feel free to make another one.

Okay I'll go ahead & get to work on it

By the way, your MAP02 was the last thing I was sent. Since I didn't hear from Kyka again after replying to him, I have no idea if my feedback on that map got to you or not. Really, I should have just sent it to you to begin with.

Anyway, it's a fine map, appropriately sized for a MAP02, though it seemed on the difficult side. I couldn't get past the start area on UV without the SSG secret. Admittedly, I'm not a UV player, but as a second map, just that first area seemed abnormally difficult. That was really the only gripe I had, nice work :D

Kyka made some edits to my map & thing placement was one thing that got changed so it's not very difficult anymore.

So where is Kyka, it appears that a PM between me & him in May was the last time he wrote anything on Doomworld, & he didn't even bother to credit me in the OP for map 2 :P

Okay, that's all good then!

Also, I'll be fucking damned if I'm stepping in as a community project leader AGAIN because the incumbent suddenly vanished. Once was more than enough D:

Just wondering if there's a demo for TNT:R floating around? Sorry for not looking through the full thread but there are 36 pages!

There isn't a demo yet, but me and Kyka did briefly discuss an alpha release when we have every map slot filled.

Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, maybe it's time for a mapper cutoff date. There are probably a few maps stuck at 90% complete and the creators would rather not tinker with them any longer.

Perhaps, but it seems the majority of mappers failed to acknowledge that this thread was even bumped. I can't update the OP, so announcing a cut-off date will probably make little difference. On the other hand, I do agree releasing an alpha when we first hit 32 maps is a good move, even though there are some fairly poor maps in there.
I compiled a version of the WAD with what I have, and sent it to Jaws In Space, who has volunteered as another tester.

To be quite honest, I should have seen this coming sooner. Sorry everyone that it took so long for me to try and start doing something about it.

EDIT: At the very least, I'll work on a current maplist, since the current one is out of date

Revised maplist

Episode 1 - Lost Io base

• MAP01: untitled - SFoZ911 (done)
  
• MAP02: untitled - Jaws in Space (done)
  
• MAP03: DMP Sand - Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP04: Graytech Harrow - Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP05: Compute Err Stay Shun - Archi, Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP06: Untitled - Xenonemesis, Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP07: Untitled - Tango (WIP. No initial version seen)
  
• MAP08: Untitled - D_GARG (Done)
  
• MAP09: Lithosphere - Melon, Kyka, Megamur (done)
  
• MAP10: Startan Complex - Whoo, Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP11: Untitled - scifista42 (WIP? No initial version seen)
  
  Episode 2 - Space bases, other moons. Dark and gloomy themed.
  
  
• MAP12: Wormholding - StupidBunny, Kyka, Megamur (Done)
  
• MAP13: Military Copmlex - EmZee, Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP14: Decay - mrthejoshmon (Done)
  
• MAP15: Untitled - Kyka, alterworldruler (Done)
  
• MAP16: The Wings - 40oz (Done)
  
• MAP17: Sting Theory - Kyka, alterworldruler (Done)
  
• MAP18: Untitled - Kyka, alterworldruler (Done)
  
• MAP19: Crud Refinery - Kyka, Xenonemesis (Done)
  
• MAP20: Untitled - Eradrop (Done)
  
  Episode 3 - Hell, fused with Earth technology.
  
  
• MAP21: Untitled - CorSair (WIP. No initial version seen)
  
• MAP22: Arenophobia - Kyka, Olympus (Done)
  
• MAP23: Dreadmill - Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP24: The Red - sincity2100 (Done)
  
• MAP25: Spider Colony - Purist (Done)
  
• MAP26: Abysmal Oubliette - Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP27: Singularity - Xaser (WIP? No initial version seen)
  
• MAP28: Untitled - Eradrop (Done)
  
• MAP29: Viridian Twilight - Kyka (Done)
  
• MAP30: (internally designed. Need final boss graphics)
  
  Secrets Maps
  
• MAP31: Anubis - Valkiriforce (Done)
  
• MAP32: Empty - Jaws in Space (WIP?)
  
  Extra maps (that I actually have)
  
• Malware - Cannonball (very likely to be assigned to mid-late E3)
  
• Underground Activity - Gothic (very likely to be assigned to late E1)
  

Some notes: Personally, I think MAP25 (Spider Colony) would be a much better fit for late episode 2, with perhaps some minor aesthetical changes. This would also leave a gap in Episode 3 which can be filled by "Malware" a map by Cannonball, which I really liked.

Months ago I sent KiiiYiiiKiiiA a small map for the 1st chapter, I'm not sure if he shared it with you guys.

Nope, I've got nothing. Send it to me I guess and I'll put it in my Revilution folder.
Given it's been three months, I wonder if you're the only one that's happened with...

Hey gothic could you go ahead & send me your map for testing as well, I'm currently looking into rearranging the maplist, as the difficuly spike from map 2 to 3 is pretty insane.

Also Eris do you have Olympics Map02 or the Reserve Maps & Status Unknown Maps that are listed in the OP?

If anyone else has maps that were sent to Kyka and are not on Eris list above there is a chance that we don't have them so if you want testing feedback send them to Eris & myself.

Sent you Olympus' map plus what else I have. I've added Malware and Gothic's map as extras in the list, pending assignment into the WAD. Marked "Your Last Resort" as used in the MIDI pack too.

Eris Falling said:

Some notes: Personally, I think MAP25 (Spider Colony) would be a much better fit for late episode 2, with perhaps some minor aesthetical changes. This would also leave a gap in Episode 3 which can be filled by "Malware" a map by Cannonball, which I really liked.

I've mentioned this before but just to remind, I don't have much of an appetite to make major changes to Spider Colony but I'm more than happy for anyone else to alter it however it is seen fit.

Oh yeah, nothing major at all. I may not even do anything with it. Thanks for your go-ahead though!

Ok everyone, me and Jaws in Space are agreed that some maps in this set aren't really up to scratch. It would be very much appreciated if we could get some extra input and feedback, for a consensus as to what we should do with them. So here's a demo containing three maps from the first episode. These are not the actual MAP01-03 in the main WAD.

DEMO 1

I think if Kyka remains absent over the next few weeks, its probably best a new thread is started, if only temporary, in case he returns.

EDIT: And please, don't expect anything great from this demo. We just want to see if there's anything we can do to improve these maps, or whether we should just remove them, thus opening slots for new maps to come in, all stuff like that.

I played the demo. There are many things I really liked, but also many things that didn't work well. Overall there's a nice TNT feeling that is present in all the maps.
-MAP01 felt a little too generic to me, the tek sections were more interesting. At the computer map secret there are 3 (or 4, I don't remember) sectors tagged as secrets.
-MAP02, pretty nice setting and sense of journey
-MAP03, I really liked the more platforming section at the big area.
For the flaws I will write on all the maps together as I think they have the same ones. This one is mitigated on MAP02 and 03 due to the size, but there are too much monsters, it felt pretty exhausting keep finding mostly scenarios a-la Ultimate Doom. There wasn't so much variety on the encounters and weapons. There are so many hitscanner, maybe in some places it would be better to give some more health, but overall the ammo kinda missing.
The encounter with the 2 hell knights on MAP01 isn't good, having just 1 with 2 other weaker monsters would be better as you have only the SG. On MAP02 the SSG comes kinda late. The demons wave on MAP03 when you grab the red key was really unispired, it seems more like a placeholder thing.
I must say that I don't know the order of the maps, and maybe you plan to have short maps between this ones. Also I can understand if you want to make some progression with weapons and monsters too, as these are E1 maps. I just wanted to point out what I think.

Ok, I played it. I'm going to be honest here, I didn't enjoy it too much. MAP01 and MAP02 felt really uninteresting. MAP01 is mainly techbase rooms connected by hallways. It's decent enough but it felt completely uninspired. MAP02 seemed to go on for longer than it needed to (400 monsters might be a bit much for an E1 map). Again, it was areas connected mainly with hallways. The outdoor areas didn't look good at all (the CAVERN textures used are just ugly), and the bit with FLOOR0_1 seems unfinished to me. Then again, it very well might be, heh. I liked MAP03 the most. It was another longer one, almost 400 monsters though I somehow missed 100+ of them. Must be a big optional area I didn't find. Anyways, I enjoyed the platforming stuff in this map, it's not something you see too often. I liked the theme as well, though I do wish the fleshy tech motif seen in the YK room stuck around for longer.

I do hope that the rest of the wad isn't all like this, smaller maps have their place, you know!

I'm going to be perfectly honest, the average monster count on UV of the whole WAD is nearly 400, but this is what we're going to sort out. Even the original TNT had its share of short maps :D
It's an issue I brought up with Kyka pretty much the instant I joined the core team, and he was in agreement, and that's kinda what the current thread title is for. We're probably going to need more than 2, heh.

Thanks for playing both of you. We'll see if anyone else gives feedback, then work out what to do with them after that. At the very least they'll be in an unused folder/pack, as that's the ethos the project was founded on.

I'm not doing anything this weekend and have never mapped for Evilution before. I'll see what I can whip up for you.

Just to bump this thread up again, I've played through the demo and seen what people mean about the length. Saying that, I didn't think any of the maps were bad, as the large monster counts were mostly low-level enemies and some of the architecture was very impressive - particularly the absurdly large computer room in MAP03 that you traverse. I'm assuming we're aiming for vanilla-compatible maps and working to that.

Coming out of my lurking to say I would appreciate if at least one E1 map from someone is sort of water themed, to match the Sea Bats midi.

Okay, so now that some people have played the demo:

MAP01 was Olympus' Nightmap, and originally held the MAP02 slot. Seems people generally didn't like this, I didn't either. I already took it out of the main WAD prior to the demo, and I think I'll leave it for Convilution.

MAP02 was DMP Sand by Kyka, and held the MAP03 slot. I really don't like this one. While a sense of journey (as gaspe noted) is important in a TNT WAD, I think the line has to be drawn somewhere. This is too big, and too boring, and both Jaws in Space and AD_79 seem to agree. This one's off to Convilution.

MAP03 was Compute Err Stay Shun by Archi and Kyka. I'm not sure about this one. Definitely the best of the three, though I wasn't completely bowled over. There are some nice visuals in this map, and the gameplay has its good parts, but on the whole it seems rather lackluster. I suppose it could be salvaged by cutting out some of the length, and with it the more boring parts, but one has to question if that's worth bothering with when more maps are still being made. Chances are this one will also be off to Convilution.

So tl;dr, thanks everyone for playing the demo, I guess none of those maps are actually going to be in the final WAD xD

In general, the maps I played that ended up in here I felt suffer from the problem of taking a tangent, strecthing it on forever and flooding it with meat, useless hordes of trash, or both. Combat generally felt less like being threatened and more like trying to get stuff out of the way so you could progress. It felt like every subarea had monsters places willy nilly "just because" when some areas could have benefitted from being sparsely populated or even empty. Not every room needs an immediate fight or a fight at all.

I rememeber thinking that kyka's maps in particular had a lot of cool setpieces and ideas, but then were padded out with filler hallways and blown up to ridiculous scale for... making a bigger map? I don't really see how being bigger would benefit a lot of these or really reflect TNT at all. Outside of a few maps by Drake O Brien, TNT is mostly average-size maps with a few bitesize things for good measure (quarry is an E3 map, for example).

I kinda get the feeling that for one, there's an idea that maps need to have more monsters to one-up the original IWAD, but in all seriousness I don't think that really works. Also kind of get the impression that kyka took some cues from when he was slaughtermapping and used them in a wad that... really should not have slaughtermaps if you're going for a resemblance to TNT.

There's a map(17 i believe) which is particularly egregious for the streching-on-into-infinity factor, which has a cool transforming pyramidal area, and I remember thinking "this map would be 100 times better if it ditched almost everything and built around this as a hub". I'd suggest cutting out the cool setpieces from these and redesgning around them instead of adding new stuff onto the end of new stuff. Basically connect the concepts better.

I figured I'd do a bit of "revision" before getting really into making a map for this and played the first 11 maps of Evilution. The main features I noticed were an abundance of hitscanners, 64-unit wide corridors (or very near that in some instances), some form of central gimmick and a lot of minor details to give a sense of location.

I also noticed that, particularly in MAP10: Stronghold, but also in a few others around that map slot, rooms were packed with monsters. 297 enemies on Ultra Violence, most of which are more likely to shoot each other than the player. The overall effect is quite damaging as you try to kill everything before your lack of armour becomes an issue, but it doesn't feel like an effective use of so many monsters.

I won't take many cues from the texture work, given it feels very 90's now and I doubt I'll be working to the standard I saw in most of those maps. I like the idea that each map has a gimmick though and I like that there's a contrast between large areas and corridors. The way lighting and music create a moody feeling in MAP06: Open Season was pretty cool, so I guess that's worth keeping in mind as well...

All told, I don't really like Evilution, so it won't be difficult for me to satisfy myself that I've made a better map whilst using it for an overall direction :P

Marcaek: Ah yes, MAP17 was one of the first I played when I joined the core team, at Kyka's request. Not one I look forward to playing again to go over what we should/could do with it. Completely agree with the rest of your post too, and adding to that, as someone who knows TNT better from PSX Final Doom, I don't associate TNT and massive journey maps at all, so I wouldn't really expect a TNT WAD to be chock-full of them. Of course you do have the Drake O'Brien maps, and the original intention for this wad was for map20 and 21 to be a sort of double map, in tribute to that.

Phobus: TNT does have its downsides, but its the better sides that we should emulate for this project, and I think from your post you know this anyway. I remember someone saying something like this when this project first split from Devilution, it was one of the reasons the split happened, poor maps that took too much of TNT's lesser side. A map won't scream TNT by just having 64-wide corridors and poor monster placement :D

Teams split because someone who nick I'll never forget incited Whoo and rest of the people in topic to take Kyka out of picture while whole project was basically him and his account was suspended by mistake. At that time it was lesson of effective betrayal. I hope this time project will succeed as rebirth of the original one.

I liked new demo too despite it's certain flaws, remember some locations from earlier demo version release of these maps, second one has better layout but monster population could be more varied in places. ;P

What E1 lacked in Evilution were too many open areas and nothing between to switch/use or shoot.

I hope this time project will succeed as rebirth of the original one.

It's not really a rebirth of the original considering that one is still in development as well, though.

Regardless, I'd really like to see this be a successful release eventually.

Well, for me Revilution is like TRCP of TNT (with Devilution being equivalent of PL2 in Evilution). ;-)

Revilution = PRCP
Devilution = PL2

TRCP - TNT: Revilution Community Project. That certainly has a nice ring to it. :D Now if someone were to make a TNT-themed 1024x1024 megawad in response to Plutinya, that'd make things even as well. Hmmm, something along the lines of TiNyT or something. XD