PC will not receive additional modding tools beyond SnapMap

MetroidJunkie said:

Doom had its source code released, too, something that's not going to happen here.

The first Doom editor that could fully build a level was released in 1994. The source code didn't come out til 1997.

The real difference will be that Doom is now owned by a company that threatens lawsuits over words in the dictionary that they own, DMCAs videos of gameplay held in a public venue (haven't heard of "any publicity is good publicity") to keep their fans starving for info, and has foxxed (if I may resurrect an underused early-2ks neologism) way more than its share of fan projects already.

People reverse engineering the new Doom to produce their own tools or add-ons should be prepared to get buried under a landslide of legal threats. Especially if it turns out that they've added "technological measures" in there to get in the way of a free unmoderated editing scene.

Then why doesn't Bethesda seem to mind about their own games getting modded? Or are they intentionally trying to cripple Doom's modding so that it won't be a potential threat to Fallout 4 in the modding department? I suppose that's possible but it'd be pretty cynical.

MetroidJunkie said:

Then why doesn't Bethesda seem to mind about their own games getting modded? Or are they intentionally trying to cripple Doom's modding so that it won't be a potential threat to Fallout 4 in the modding department? I suppose that's possible but it'd be pretty cynical.

This is how corporate minds just happen to think. It's very obvious to me that these decisions aren't made from gamers point of view but instead just big suits calling the shots without thinking about the actual game even one bit. It is all just about the money.

This whole "snapmap is all the modding in doom 4" is actually now the first aspect about doom 4 that i really hate. I really hope there won't be a build up of more of these aspects, as i really think the aesthetics forexample in DOOM 4 are very appropriate. Actual AAA game with gore and stuff, evil skulls but we'll see if the console design proves to another aspect/factor that i really start to hate.

MetroidJunkie said:

Then why doesn't Bethesda seem to mind about their own games getting modded? Or are they intentionally trying to cripple Doom's modding so that it won't be a potential threat to Fallout 4 in the modding department? I suppose that's possible but it'd be pretty cynical.

I believe they want to use Doom as a testbed for modding as a platform/service, particularly after how miserably their effort at monetizing mods on Steam failed. By saying it would be part of the new "Bethesda.net" system (of which we have NO details so far AFAIK), this was pretty much confirmed in my view. Shades of "Battle.net" anybody?

If this turns out to be the case, then everything I've said will be a lot more likely. If not, then it's a lot less likely.

jute said:

I'm curious to know how many posters in this thread have worked with the Rage editor or even the Doom 3 editor.

My exact same thoughts on the subject. Doom3 never reached the same level of modding as classic Doom, as there's much more involved to crank out a simple map.
I don't even know if Rage mods exist, but again the complexity factor.

Snap map is lego with pre-fabs, I imagine the large outdoor areas are sculpted set pieces that can't be cobbled together in the same fashion. I imagine there's gifted people out there that could actually make use of a complete Doom 4 editor, but they certainly aren't the majority.

That's a good point. Complexity is probably the reason so many people (This is certainly true of myself) stick to Doom editing. There are other editors out there that are free to use and have a lot of potential like the Unity Engine, the Source engine, and the Unreal Development Kit. The obvious downside is it's so much harder to learn how to use because true 3D, by its very nature, is going to be harder to use than the 2D-based Doom engine.

Yes, I expect we will see a far larger modding scene for Doom 4 than for Doom 3. For this reason alone, I think SnapMap's accessibility outweighs its limitations. A limited editor that gets lots of use is better than a limitless editor few people use.

jute said:

Yes, I expect we will see a far larger modding scene for Doom 4 than for Doom 3. For this reason alone, SnapMap's accessibility outweighs its limitations. A limited editor that gets lots of use is better than a limitless editor few people use.

Technically, it'll have a mapping scene, not a modding scene I guess? And the mapping scene will be more limited than people would like.

Still, I do think SnapMap looks very cool, and it's better than the nothing that many games provide. I wonder what the max amount of enemies for a snapmap map will be, or if there will be a maximum amount allowed per room, etc.

In general I'm curious what the limits will be, aside from the no outdoor areas thing.

They can do what Valve did and offer both. Portal 2 offers its own map editor that's simplified in addition to the usual Hammer Editor for people who want something with more depth. I imagine most choose the ingame editor simply because it's easier to use and they don't have any need for the extra bells and whistles of the Hammer Editor. Give people the option, at least. Give them the chance to have a completely unrestricted editor for those daring enough to play around with it.

Man, I'm pretty bummed about the outdoor thing. A major part of classic Doom is how there's often indoor and outdoor environments in the same map.

GoatLord said:

Man, I'm pretty bummed about the outdoor thing. A major part of classic Doom is how there's often indoor and outdoor environments in the same map.

I'm more bummed about what Quasar mentioned. After Bethesda attempted that paid mod thing with Steam back in April I've had a feeling that they'd try it again under some different service that would stir up less of a shitstorm. I've read about the controversies regarding Battle.net and if this is similar to what Bethesda has in mind for their own content delivery service (which sounds like it falls in line with the claim that the PC won't get extended modding tools) then I could see the popularity for modding Doom 4 be less than that of Doom 3.

Something about this whole situation stinks and I don't like it. I don't want to be pessimistic about the new Doom. However, given the information about the new Doom and modding in this topic, I don't have any reason to be optimistic either and if all of this is true then I'll likely forego buying the new Doom and just teach myself to map/mod classic Doom so I can make my own Doom 4. :\

It's like they took what's kept classic Doom alive so long and completely whored it out to Console Kids. Like a reversal of current trends: They nail game-play but dumb-down modding specifically for console.

They'll be the ones regretting it if the game ends up lacking appeal for modders because it means the game will fall straight out of the limelight that much more rapidly. As fun and entertaining as the Classic Doom is, I doubt most of us would continue to use it so much if it wasn't for the all the robust modding opportunities. Bethesda, in particular, should know the benefit of modding when their own games have massive modding communities and it's not like you have to dumb down modding tools specifically for console, especially when the PC crowd is going to be the real inspirations of innovation within the modding. People who get consoles do so to play games, you won't find many outside of the LittleBigPlanet community that would actually go up for such a task. More than likely, you'd just have simple little levels.

My personal opinion on snapmap is that it seems very very restricted for even a console level editor. I think that really and truly doom 4 will sort of die away from lack of good modding support. That has what made the original doom games stay alive for so long.

Is it possible to be able to create complex architecture on a console? Could clever enough prefabs work?

I do hope they do a proper sdk sometime after the game's release.

It would be super cool if modders could make their own custom tiles and assets to use for snapmap

You never know when they may choose to unlock more features over time or change their mind about additional mod support. Although to be fair on the consoles then PC will probably not get that opportunity.

For a moment I wondered if the developers allowed a few cracks in the coding to allow some clever cookies to break a few restrictions and allow to produce more unique content but yet again, Consoles. So it will be rather secure I would imagine.

RobotJoe said:

It would be super cool if modders could make their own custom tiles

Unlikely, as they are probably using the same editor to make the tiles as used to make the normal levels of the game.

Console players aren't incapable of entering in names, they just scroll to each letter like they've always done since they entered in their name on the first Zelda for NES.

MetroidJunkie said:

They can do what Valve did and offer both. Portal 2 offers its own map editor that's simplified in addition to the usual Hammer Editor for people who want something with more depth. I imagine most choose the ingame editor simply because it's easier to use and they don't have any need for the extra bells and whistles of the Hammer Editor. Give people the option, at least. Give them the chance to have a completely unrestricted editor for those daring enough to play around with it.

Exactly. Then again, Valve actually knows what they're doing. Today's id Software? I'm not so sure.

You know I see alot of people trying to place blame on consoles for everything. Here's the thing though, say they do release additional modding tools to accompany the game on release. The game now has full mod support. Great, then what? How many people here are actually gonna take advantage of this, or take the time to learn how to?

Doom 3 had full mod support but how many things did we really get out of it? Quite a bit mind you but no where near what Classic Doom has cranked out. Alot of D3 mods were just graphic/sound tweaks and some maps, but very few large scale or unique projects ever got off the ground. In other words, it didn't really live up to it's potential, and that was when PC gaming was more recognized.

Why should it be any different this time around? Putting something out like snapmap that is available to all users is alot better than putting out tools that is accessible only to a few (PC gamers) who may or may not even bother.

Not saying they shouldn't release additional tools, I'd rather they do both.

Xaero_Four said:

You know I see alot of people trying to place blame on consoles for everything. Here's the thing though, say they do release additional modding tools to accompany the game on release. The game now has full mod support. Great, then what? How many people here are actually gonna take advantage of this, or take the time to learn how to?

Doom 3 had full mod support but how many things did we really get out of it? Quite a bit mind you but no where near what Classic Doom has cranked out. Alot of D3 mods were just graphic/sound tweaks and some maps, but very few large scale or unique projects ever got off the ground. In other words, it didn't really live up to it's potential, and that was when PC gaming was more recognized.

Why should it be any different this time around? Putting something out like snapmap that is available to all users is alot better than putting out tools that is accessible only to a few (PC gamers) who may or may not even bother.

Not saying they shouldn't release additional tools, I'd rather they do both.

Exactly what I think.

It's absolutely true that Doom 3's modding scene is completely dwarfed by that of Classic Doom (which I'll now refer to as CD), but this is due in part to the apparently notoriously convoluted nature of D3's engine. However, the overarching reason it didn't really take off is obvious: A fully 3D engine is generally (if not almost always) far more difficult to work with than a 2D one, and this will remain true until tools are developed which can streamline the process for laymen. SnapMap obviously seeks to do this, but the more I've been thinking about it, the more I've been realizing, "Well shit, you probably won't be able to do that, either."

At the same, I fully realize that it is basically impossible to translate the core of CD mapping--creating shapes and pathways based on a top-down view--to a modern game like neo-Doom, where such a method would probably result in very flat, bland looking environments. But there's something that bothers me deeply about having to rely on enclosed prefab rooms, because it's a bit of a middle finger to the more outrageous, ambitious CD maps that intimately display the personality and aesthetics of the mapper(s).

With SnapMap, it looks like we can basically say bye-bye to the surrealist, abstract, hellish, gothic, nightmarish and sometimes contemporary settings that permeate the classic modding scene. I'm going to miss the fact that, with DoomBuilder 2, I can sit down and design vastly different maps, or combine several different environmental ideas into a single map.

I think what you're saying is that SnapMap is a good idea but id Software is being boneheaded by deliberately and unnecessarily limiting the available prefabs to bland looking techbase indoor areas.

There's absolutely no reason they couldn't provide as many such environments. Hell, maybe this is in fact why a second company was recently brought on to the project specifically for the editor - if the complaints and comments caught their attention, maybe they've realized they need more investment into a variety of prefabs and those certainly take a lot of time and resources to create - enough to justify subcontracting it out.

I've got an idea to make a 3D engine editor work well enough to be just as streamlined as Doom Builder but without sacrificing complexity, treat each layer as a 2.5-D area. Draw your areas like you would in Doombuilder but layer it on like 3D. I didn't come up with this idea, though, I was inspired by Mapster32 for eDuke32. It's 2.5-D but you can extort layers up and down to basically take advantage of Duke 3D's portals to sandwich them together so it's essentially 3D, if only the illusion of 3D. Imagine building rooms by drawing like you would 2.5-D rooms but they're essentially turned into polygons and then you work in layers.

You could also set it to draw 3D platforms of a certain size by drawing over rooms to where you want the platform to be. That's probably the only way I can think of to have a full fledged 3D editor that's just as easy to maneuver around as Doom Builder. The editor itself could even use a ray-trace engine and then convert them to polygons when the map is made, eDuke32's polymer and GZDoom already essentially do this.

tl;dr version: 2D editor with 3D layers.

That doesn't change the fact that most people won't be able to design all the little intricate details you would expect to find in a modern 3D game...

Most often, little intricate details in more modern games tend to be polygonal models which ID Software could easily add in the form of an objects menu. It's not that much different than inserting little decorations in Classic Doom in the form of sprites such as corpses and lamps.

I still think it would get overly complicated very fast, but there must surely be a way to make it all work. SnapMap is a really great idea and the clips I've seen are certainly promising, but surely id knows how diverse Doom maps can be. You won't get much diversity out of what they're showing.

Well you know, from what I've seen so far it seems about on par with Mario Maker, so in terms of something like that it's pretty serviceable.

Maybe it would be better if they considered doing away with the arbitrary meter that restricts how much you can put in or at least make it generous enough that you could make levels at least on par with the ones in the actual game. I don't want it to be an afterthought that barely allows you to do anything like the stage editor in Super Smash Bros Brawl.