The DWmegawad Club plays: Sunlust

MAP23 In Flight

I remember playing this map the first time, as it's the one with a layout that made my brain ache. the combat is thankfully lighter enough for me to enjoy it, but getting around was quite the tax. a lot of optional switches, you want only the red key, but those five yellow keys require some switch pressing, some require secrets. Rewards are rather worth it, if you can get past whoever else decides to teleport in. The BFG is welcome for the final ambush. Not too bad, just confusing layout.

17

Waaaay behind now. I've not had much time in front of Sunlust for a while and actually played this map in a couple of sittings. I don't think a huge amount happened before the early chaingunner and viles swarm that I was saved at when I resumed today but I don't remember much.

This is the first of a new theme of flesh. This is the hardest common Doom theme to make look good in my opinion and, although it's not amongst the picks in this set, a good job has been done. I think this is mainly thanks to sticking to a predominant pink/red theme, sticking to a similar set of flesh textures and using a lot of nice curves and layering to keep the place looking more organic than some of the maps in this theme do.

The fights in this one are hard. Hard as in, how am I supposed to beat this hard. Needless to say, there is a solution for each of them and fortunately they came apparent to me early enough in my trials that I felt like I was achieving rather than being frustrated. I think I was on an razor edge in this respect and it could have gone either way. Munitions are rationed so that there is enough to deal with the fight immediately ahead of you with little room for error so, although surviving one battle by the skin of your teeth usually means you'll be replenished for the next, the actual battles themselves require a good deal of efficiency. I would not recommend saving mid-fight unless you are sure you are doing well or using multiple save points as it would be quite possible to save yourself into an unwinnable position.

This level had a lot of character, which for all their amazing looks, not every level can boast and the use of monsters suit the surroundings too.

About map21:

The yellow key bars won't open if you go for the RL first. Same thing applies to the blue key bars (I think. I actually forgot ...). It's just a new approach we tried. You can still get 100% kills and secrets, so it's no biggie. And as I think you might have guessed, we are not very interested in letting the player grab every item on the map since it's mostly not even needed. We rather experiment and do something weird.

We fucked up the last version when we removed a sector tag that served as a tele destination for the BFG (which you would've got if you went for the RL) by mistake.

You can choose either YK or BK before getting access to the RK route. The only difference is the monsters you fight and the weapon given.

I sense some extreme whining about map24 tomorrow :]

dannebubinga said:

I sense some extreme whining about map24 tomorrow :]

It falls on a Saturday and my usual afternoon AD&D game has been cancelled. You're gonna have my undivided attention for the mother of all whinerants. :)

MAP23 - "In Flight"

I didn't like most of this map for reasons which I already made clear in my previous posts. In addition, the music induced me into a state similar to hypnotic sleep (in combination with my current tiredness) and it made me perceive the game rather dispassionately. I admit that the red key corridor battle was fine, and the BFG battle could have been great if the BFG wasn't available during it, but otherwise the gameplay didn't satisfy me, and the atmosphere and aesthetic neither.

MAP16: Lost Antiques
100% kills, 2/3 secrets

Tough start here, as in trying to fight the initial enemies I ended up unleashing 3 arch-viles at once, plus the revenants that teleport in and the already-present hitscanners, imps, spectres etc. I must admit I'm not a big fan of this design (such as having an innocuous-looking corridor that looks like a nice spot for dodging enemies to unleash another AV) as it seems to require the player to 'learn the level' which isn't really my thing. To put it plainly, there are so many other Doom levels and other video games and other ways to spend my time that it's rare that I'll bother playing through a map more than once. So I suppose the speedrunners can appreciate learning all the tricks and traps, but for me, it's a turnoff. Anyways, I decided to just persevere through setting off the traps and blunt force my way through with saves instead of reloading the map.

The middle section of the map is much more to my liking, with some interesting fights (that weren't frustrating) and level design. I like both the 'side areas' which contain the yellow and red key cards; they do a good job both of presenting a nice unique locale, as well as a nice little battle that requires some thinking but isn't too tough - I'm especially a fan of the red key one (arch-vile with pain elementals from behind). The Spider Masterminds were easy once I figured out to run past them and let their babies handle it with infighting.

Then comes the requisite Revenant/AV horde, with some pinky demons thrown in just to make manuevering a pain. After dying over and over I ended up chickening out and retreating all the way back up the elevator (took a few attempts to make it past the AV wall) and then abusing the elevator to thin out the herd a few clumps at a time before sniping the Arch-Viles to death. Felt like a bit of breaking the level, which I don't like, but, there's been enough fights where that seems to be intended by the authors that I stuck with it.

Then the drop into the exit... ugh. What could've been a perfectly fine level gets capped off by a simple "let's shove 100 revenants/arch-viles/hell knights into a box" design. This is really where the slaughter design loses my interest, as just sitting there holding down the button on the BFG trigger doesn't tickle my fancy. There's also a pretty cool epilogue at the end leading into the flesh theme of the next level, though I wasn't nearly as awestruck as I might otherwise be. Not sure why... still mad at the ending fight? Too much "seen it all before" because I've played through 15 similar looking levels before this? I dunno.

I also will say this might be where I jump down to HMP difficulty... guess I'll give next map a shot first.

Magnusblitz said:

MAP16: Lost Antiques
100% kills, 2/3 secrets

I also will say this might be where I jump down to HMP difficulty... guess I'll give next map a shot first.

:D

TheOrganGrinder said:

It falls on a Saturday and my usual afternoon AD&D game has been cancelled.

AD&D? I know people that like playing 3.5, but still stickin' with the oldies is a rarity.

MAP23: This one was obnoooooooxious. Despite the nonlinearity, cool visuals, & secret-hunting theme, almost none of the gameplay resonated with me since it was largely ‘zerk oriented. I was fine with many of the perched enemies but the hitscanners from afar were huge pests and none of the secret weapons added too much to the final battle, as you had to burn a lot of ammo just to get them. The final fight was alright although the resurrecting chaingunners just felt like an unfunny troll as they didn’t offer you time to scope out the arena’s dynamics. And that strafe-jump required to get back to the start pedestal is nigh-impossible for me, so I couldn’t utilize the BFG or megasphere. This map felt somewhat like MAP31’s weird cousin, and it’s definitely a level I won’t miss playing again.

Map 18: DNF, 1/2 secrets, 3 deaths, no saves

Fun map. The megasphere at the start is especially welcome if continuing from the previous level (and having extra ammo does help early on). From a pistol start, it's SSG versus a pair of barons (on HMP anyways) before grabbing the megasphere and then on to the map (for anyone who finds SSG versus barons difficult, Sunlust is way past that skill level anyways).

Moving around reveals waiting packs of monsters though there is plenty of space to zip around. There is damaging ground present so that things aren't so easy and even better, serves as a present source of damage yet doesn't feel restrictive (unlike map 14). The freedom to handle the masses in all sorts of ways makes this a fun experience. I felt I could make progress without relying on saves and actually made it pretty far.

Death #1; SSG duelling a cyber is within my skill level. I zigged when I should have zagged though and moved straight into a rocket.
Death #2: Gangbanged by hellknights Thought I had plasma rifle when I actually didn't so no escape from being cornered.
Last attempt: Tracked down the plasma rifle this time. Got yellow key. Rocket launcher got a workout. The archviles backing up the imps were an evil surprise. Got worn down eventually and went splat at red key ambush due to both surprise and having no armor.

MAP24 Dying on Cue:

Damn what an awesome map. This was expected to be the most difficult map yet but I found it to be difficult but fair (for the most part). The enemy count is insanely high especially in that last room. Those damn Cacos and pain elementals needed to go man. I used up all my BFG on them first and then used the rockets to take out all the conveyor belt guys. I couldn't believe how much I was seeing fly through that part. The area before it was really hard and I wanted to say it was too cheap, but the secret invincibility is a great help there. This map is easily the best so far. I'm very impressed. BTW I had one enemy who never showed up being a spectre. I had to use kill spectre command to get 2115/2115 kills lol.

Keep on truckin', dudes, you're coming into the most difficult part of the game now, but I know you can all make it out the other side. Of all the maps I've played so far (which is everything but map 30 at this point, incidentally), I actually struggled by far the most with 24, but perseverance (read: the willingness to die 50 bajillion times while experimenting with problem situations) and a bit of thinking (and the occasional bit of ill-fated overthinking) eventually got me through.

Edit: Typo.

24: Dying On Cue
While I sort of liked the [clumsy] optionality in Gloomy Glacier that could've gotten my ass to the exit in 5 minutes - I admit that not only this map is prettier (again, pretty much 14-16 cluster theme, only with gigantic proportions and different colors, it's a bit more pale but not quite zimmerfest yet; some techy stuff got thrown in, too), but it's also less all over the place. And yeah, running away so easily from vast majority of combat scenarios isn't going to work here, heh.
I like how this thing looks, it's dark and oppressive. Music track from Blood does a good job at helping establishing the mood, though I still think that Ribbiks' track from Gloomy Glacier would work here as well, trading malignancy for mysteriousness for a bit, though I don't see it as anything bad in this setting. Still some temples, ancient ruins and stuff, so why not.
The escape routes are now effectively blocked, and the cetral hub is pretty cramped, so now the player has to take each fight like a man and be ready to suffer consequences. While it's still possible to jump into the pre-exit sequence with all those archviles right after clearing the said hub - the understanding of just how wrong such action was comes very, very fast. Maybe pretty much forcing the player to grab the "optional" keys is somewhat crude, but I gotta agree that it certainly makes that encounter a lot less boring. Die instantly without any cover, raise a bunch of pillars and pray that'd be sufficient (but waste the bfg, obviously), or survive all of the arduous encounters and get all the goodies and all possible cover. The secret invul is well worth getting, even that thing won't help the player should he/she decide it'd get him/her through without any keys (I tried for funsies and just kept hugging the ceiling until it wore out), but it's still useful there, at the very least as a confidence booster.
Final fight is still my favorite, lots of fun to be had there. It still seems to be pretty bizarre, but who cares when it's that awesome.
Overall - this map is as close as Sunlust gets to Combat Shock, some moments may seem overly crude/cruel in terms of practical realisation, but I'm still grateful for its existence. After all the smaller-scale stuff Danne has made for this project, it's always great to see something that's more like his usual approach. Demanding and exhausting but nevertheless competent and entertaining map.

MAP24 - “Dying On Cue"

No, Zandronum on my computer cannot handle the sheer amount of detail AND active monsters (even in outside closets) without heavy lagging, dropping frame rate down to 3-10 FPS (my guess). Also, it's apparently a straightforward slaughtermap with traits similar to MAP20's if not worse for my likings. I'm skipping it.

MAP24 Dying on Cue

You can bet I wasn't really looking forward to playing this one due to that monstercount. This had an ice theme originally (which is in Summer of '69 if I am either correct or not??), but now it's more of the murky green that I'm more used to seeing. the beginning ends up in more claustrononsense, and to get to the center of the map is a "race through the open bars" switch thing which is never a good idea. there's still more claustrophobic battles, coupled with a few "behind-the-back" ambushes, in the center area, as the walls lower for more enemies. Couple that with annoying lag and I really just have problems doing stuff. Having carry-overs really helps here.

Yay four paths in a hub, indicated by what's on top. Finding the secret invulnerability, I suggest using it for the red key teleport area, as there's tons of shit flying in that area. Too bad it ain't as useful for something even worse than that. Revs and archies on pillars (fuck arch-viles), a BFG that trolls you, and spectres, clearly getting in your face. yes, the spectres ruin things for me at this red key battle most, as well as the next batch of teleporting guys that come later on and of course those half-baked arch-viles. Again, carry-over BFG is better. I liked the yellow key fight better, once the demons and cyberdemon were out of the way. This at least gave me an arch-vile at the very end where he's not too dangerous.

So apparently you need both red and yellow keys for finally getting a BFG.

Because fuck arch-viles.

that last arena fight is so funny, when all those monsters get zoomed into the playing field. best to get rid of the lost souls though, as they get in the way too much. the crushers are sometimes helpful but not by much, I prefer shooting these guys down anyways. All in all, definitely the first REAL slaughter of this game, one very memorable map with some ups and downs.

seriously though fuck those arch-viles just before the end.

dobu gabu maru said:

AD&D? I know people that like playing 3.5, but still stickin' with the oldies is a rarity.

My GM's got the urge to run the classic AGD modules - Scourge of the Slave Lords, Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths of the Earth - so we've taken a break from Pathfinder to go back to one of the classic systems. :)

MAP24: Dying on Cue

Speaking of "Descent into the Depths of the Earth," this is a return to the mythic underworld theme we've seen in earlier maps. With a monster count of 1,250 on HNTR, I'm expecting something that's either very clever or utterly exhausting.

...Well, what do you know, it was a little bit of both.

The underworld theme is embodied here not just in natural caverns, vast in scope, but in sections that are reminiscent of the Cretan labyrinth - I suppose the Barons of Hell and their juniors are standing in for the minotaur there. For most of the map, things ramp up through an ever-escalating series of slaughter setpieces until a final battle against legions of imps, revenants, and Hell Knights bursting forth from a single enormous gateway - Hell vomits its filth, indeed. I don't generally care for slaughter maps but this one was on the fun side, though a couple of moments - the arch-vile teleport antechamber between the hub and the final showdown - had me cursing the map author's name.

18

The advice I would give for this one is Keep Calm and Get the BFG. There is an embarrassment of space and plenty of cells so get the BFG as quick as possible, use your space and terrain to your advantage and pick your moment to chase down any arch viles or PE's thrown into the mix. The terrain is very much your friend here, being open enough to dodge freely in but with large scale cover to keep out of vile line of sight when needed. Plus varying height levels, which help in outrunning homing revenant missiles.

There are several large scale set piece battles here that can be handled in any order or all triggered at once I suppose if you're feeling brave and this reminded me a little of Dangeresque. Although some of the battles are closed off from the main areas others open up even more space, which means some of the fights get easier as you go along. By the time I released the cyberdemon I had so much space I felt comfortable enough to trigger the next swarm to use the cyberdemon as an infinite rocket turret by proxy.

If the Womb used the limited flesh textures to build a small, compact but atmospheric malevolent feeling map, this level imports the same textures into a more typical Sunlust environment. It still looks good, using more structural textures as both accents, texture breaks and to facilitate some of the mechanical parts of progression. The six key quest is used but like it's previous appearance most of the keys are found in the same spot and is used more to prevent skipping fights than to traverse a huge map.

MAP23 - "In Flight" by Ribbiks

Fuckin annoying map with no ammo or armour and constant barrage from snipers that means getting hit randomly by stuff you can't even see. Chaingunners invisible in shadows and on high up perches, revs on distant platforms, and again I say no ammo or armour. This is the kind of map where you find yourself reloading just from taking an unlucky hit, even if you are still alive, because you'll need every scrap of health, and ammo isn't just low, its non existent. So forget dealing with those snipers. Just keep doing the same bit over and over until you get it right or get lucky. The problem with it is that the challenge all hinges on there being no ammo, and that is what makes it a pain in the arse to play because it limits your choices. If there was more ammo then you could just clear out all the snipers and you'd just have an empty map, so that wouldn't work. I can actually see this map being fun with just a bit more leniency, but as it is its just frustrating.

MAP24 - “Dying On Cue" by Danne

This map seemed to have changed since I last played it. There were very familiar parts, but other bits I had no memory of at all. The beginning I remembered well, quite an enjoyable bit of crowd control in an ever unfolding series of traps. Then came a weird ceramic cyberdemon maze that seemed new. I'm sure I would have remembered it because it was a complete pain in the arse, totally down to luck getting through that. It didn't even look very nice, but somehow it was lagging even on my main computer. The yellow key fight was fairly straightforward, the red key on the other hand was a nightmare. Again that was totally down to luck, as well as precise technique to get rid of archviles as quickly as possible. Oh yeah, there was another bit i didn't remember with a load of shotgunners, that was a bit tricky with no armour. Like the cyber maze it didn't feel as polished in terms of design and layout, I see from the extra info text that this map did undergo some upheaval, I'm not sure I like how it turned out though. I'm sure it seemed a bit more cohesive before. So anyway, on to the archvile fight which was highly annoying but worth it for being quite an unusual set-up. The finale was great fun, massive imp carnage. A map of ups and downs for me.

MAP24: Aww hell yeah! It’s been a long while since I’ve played an insanely epic slaughtermap, so this was a ton of fun. A massive stage, tense encounters, plenty of low-tier monsters to gib, and some great infighting scenarios await the player as they venture forth through this verdant grotto. I really like the size and scope of each encounter—the only two issues I had is that doing the red key fight feels really RNG-oriented in order to avoid aggroing the AVs while you’re sniping them, and the entire design of the archvile temple, as it pretty much demands both keys and the BFG to power through (for us non-Doom Gods). Otherwise, each fight was really crafty and well handled. Since I had the power of saving on my side, I could kind nudge certain fights in the direction I desired (like plasma gunning the cyberdemon at the YK fight down before taking on the pinkies), but it still gave me a tough time; I definitely died here more than any other map thus far. But nothing felt unfair or absurd… it just took some effort to figure out a good strategy and hack through it. Really awesome map for sating your bloodlust, with some nice scenery to serve as your tomb.

Also kudos to Danne for making me laugh out loud when I saw how the BFG is kinda just tossed out in that one room. For teasing its presence so much, that was probably the goofiest way to hand it to the player… needed a fart SFX methinks.

^I liked the way he had the out of sight arch-vile "ha-ha-HAH-hah" at you right after the YK BFG ditches you for a cooler kid.

25: Proxyon
The glorious start of the verdant minisode filled to the brim with saturated green and some truly epic and eye-pleasing looks. This map - as is the whole cluster that houses it - is a pleasure to look at. Lots of animated lightstrips, towering structures in the background, cool green sky - everything looks lovely. Add to that the very fitting music track - and you'll get a very stylish and atmospheric relief for prying eyes.
And then comes the action. This map offers two ways to go, though both are required to be survived through in order to reach the exit. So, first thing to notice - the whole map is very compact, and so are all of the arenas. It's very setpiece-heavy, with nothing happening in-between fights, though it certainly allows to catch one's breath. And you will surely want to do that more than once, as battles themselves are just relentless. Each one of them requires fast reaction and agility, as hordes swarm over that little space the player has in each given scenario, and mistakes more often than not lead to painful death and restart. The red key path in particular is a bloody vortex of cruelty, while the wall of nobles is easy enough to crack - the cyber & barons encounter with SURPRISE! teleports of very heavy opposition into this tiny battleground and especially the next fight happening on the stairs are, like, really brutal. Not only it takes time to adjust to them, but it also takes some effort to execute all the pre-planned actions even with a notion of how everything works in there. Just... ooff.
The yellow key path is a bit more tame, yet it's still miles away from being relaxing. I actually like the cacovasion despite its congested nature, yet the revenant onslaught following it is orders of magnitude more tricky to withstand and dissipate, so all the tomatoes need to be dealt with fast in this race against the clock, otherwise it's pretty much a lost cause. The subsequent encounters aren't anything super tough even without foreknowledge, though I see that chaingunner ambush can be lethal, and the noble group among the pillars can hug you to death should you hesitate or choose the wrong directions for retreat. The fight for the key itself is easy enough with some spare BFG cells.
While the strong weaponry is given right at the start - thinking that drowning in cells is going to be the case here is quite a delusion. Most of the time it's rockets scattered around, which can be not that convenient considering the relatively cramped nature of encounters (remember my words when you blow the shit out of yourself on the aforementioned stairs encounter over and over and over again, all thanks to those fucking spectres), and one should refrain from using the bfg for as long as possible, it's the weapon of last resort, to be used only when everything is really bad. Cells are very, very scarce. There's also an ssg, though it can only be used to finish off the survivors, as using it as a main weapon during the onset of any encounter is a guaranteed suicide.
Overall - very brutal, very demanding and punishing cramped slaughtermap that packs huge swarms into compact arenas. Quite satisfying when beaten, yet quite rage-inducing at times during the process.

MAP25 - "Proxyon"

Much better than I expected: No big lags, actually engaging fights (more or less: infighting is fun, but waiting / shooting into an enemy horde for 30 seconds is not really fun), and the artstyle was easy-enough for me to not pay attention to its displeasing abstract "glory" and rather pay attention to the game. So at the end, this map was "good but not at all great" in my view.

MAP25 Proxyon

a little more relieving I guess. artistic black/green cyberpunkish atmosphere is what this map shows best. first stop was the cyber and the caco/lost soul gang, then waiting for the revenants. in the end I loop quite a ways around much of the map fighting setpieces until I reach the yellow key. not too hard on continuous.

going for the other key now, I can appreciate the rockets here, and the hell knight ambush, but for some reason, an oddly put vile really just puts me off. a sitting duck cyber and a few other lackeys compromised a more fun part after that. imp horde + hell knights was more trouble than it was worth though. At least the key's right there, and with that the exit needed no effort. this map is actually way too easy on continuous. That's okay though since I needed to breathe after the hectic MAP24.

Vote time! I'll throw in a vote for Memento Mori 2.

My suggestions for next month's megawad:

Plutonia 2
Community Chest 2 or 3
playing several different episode replacements for Doom 1 (unrelated to each other)

MAP25 - "Proxyon" by Danne

Hmmm... this was a weird one for me. I started out on UV and went the red key route first. Got past the wall of hell meat after a few tries and the next bit with the cyber, but then the imps on the stairs I found impossible. I gave up in the end and knocked the difficulty down to HMP, and it was all so nerfed I hardly felt like I was breaking a sweat, so I went back to UV again. It seems that the mistake I made last time with the imp stairs was needing the megasphere before I started it, as long as you can leave that for health back-up half way through its a lot more manageable. So I carried on with UV. The caco cloud was a real problem next, I couldn't figure out a reliable way to deal with them. The cyber was next to useless, it was pure luck if he fired any rockets at all to distract them. Eventually I got lucky and managed to corral them enough to squeeze around the edge until the revs arrived, and then just nuke everything and hope for the best. That was definitely the most difficult part of the whole map, everything after that was relatively simple to deal with or run away from. The fight puzzles mainly derived their challenge from the lack of space, which I'm not so keen on, and the bits that were tough seemed quite a spike in difficulty, unless there are some slaughter techniques that I'm not familiar with that would help. It did seem weird though how much easier it was on HMP, maybe its just the nature of the puzzles having a certain tipping point for challenge. Dunno.

I'm gonna throw in Estranged or Endless Torture because nobody knows what they are.

Some ideas:

reverie
doom core
restoring deimos
endgame + insertion + slayer
the darkening 1 + 2 + crusades
squadron 417 + no rest for the living
30 random single maps from /idgames

MAP25: Proxyon

You know your personal sense of scale and pacing has been recalibrated when a map with a population of 353+ that sprays imps and Hell Knights at you like a firehose of infernal meat seems restrained.

The contrast colours as back here, with this map offering up green accents and light sources against the muted tones of its quirky, "techno-Mesoamerican" architecture. It's another slaughter map, but a more intimate affair this time, a series of arenas coiled around themselves serpentine through which the player traces a route which ultimately criss-crosses their own path on the way to the red and yellow keys. Compared to the scale and overwhelming body count of MAP24 it's a breather, but I'm hoping the next level provides something other than slaughter as its gameplay focus.

I'm occupying my Dooming time next month with NaNoWriMo, so no vote from me.

MAP25: Damn this one was cool. For as gorgeous as Sunlust has been thus far, there aren’t too many maps that have an utterly distinctive feel to them (The Womb is probably the most memorable). Luckily this one holds itself above the rest with eerie, boxy engineering and some deliciously slick circuit lights. The hell station throbs with malevolent energy, each individual station is primed to stop you.

And that’s where the map shines it’s best—it’s nothing but big setpiece fights. I think this concept can tend to feel a little more contrived in a more natural setting, but this cubic space station felt built for these series of battles. All of the fights were fantastic too! The only two I had serious trouble with were the caco/rev mashup and the imp/specter stairs—the former was a nightmare because I had cacos and revs blocking me from running my laps around the room, and the latter wouldn’t relent with warping in enemies the entire time (I finished that one at 5%). Despite their difficulty, each fight is certainly charming and a lot of fun to try and determine a strategy for (the HK/baron wave with AVs backing them is probably my favorite). The only one I didn’t enjoy was the nobles in that one tight obsidian hold, as it wasn’t nearly as dangerous as the rest of the map (the chaingunners that came before it were far more cruel—fuck you for that Ribbiks Danne)... would've appreciated a little more teeth on that one. Overall, a jolly green playground I definitely want to revisit on lower difficulties to see how it plays.

So far it’s a real good one-two punch of Danne-Ribbiks slaughtermaps in a row; couldn’t be happier!

dobu gabu maru said:

fuck you for that Ribbiks

Picked the wrong person to get mad at, this map's by danne.

I saw that nice sentence in the previous DWMC thread about Sunlust followed by HR2. Too good to be true, I know, I know.