HORROR IN DOOM

On 11/24/2018 at 11:42 AM, chemo said:

I didn't say that DOOM is all about action. Hell, I think that if there's some horror elements in-between large fights, then it helps in preventing the game from becoming monotonous and it puts into perspective the kind of evil demonkind is (and as I mentioned in my previous post, it's not like it's something that DOOM 2016 completely lacks and I'm still optimistic that Eternal is the same). But even so, at the end of the day the original is primarily an action game. The manual even bills it as an "action-oriented slugathon".

Well you hinted at that by saying the non-action parts are just a mere background and I don't really agree with that. The original game is definitely more focused on the atmosphere of danger which is omitted in DOOM4 and completely gone in Eternal. I don't think DOOM needs to be a strict horror game but I'd love to see more gritty and grotesque stuff, darker atmosphere of facing overwhelming odds. But that's not gonna happen with the current direction.

7 hours ago, Touchdown said:

 

The original game is definitely more focused on the atmosphere of danger which is omitted in DOOM4 and completely gone in Eternal.

That's true. I hope they will still have that in Eternal. 

I'll say, the aspect of horror I'd like in this is the "Hell yeah that's cool!" and "that is delightfully evil" type of feel I get from my favorites. I myself wouldn't want the usual jump scares and modern horror movie spook show type of thing necessarily, though I did enjoy Doom 3 and F.E.A.R. at the time.

A lot of my favorite horror movies aren't really scary to me so much as they're compelling and cool in a wicked way. Dario Argento movies for example, like Suspiria, Tenebrae, Opera, etc where it's beautiful and rockin' to see this stark crazy evil stuff unfold. Or Hellraiser, where the movie is more about "wow look at this cool imaginative unexpected madness taking place", at least for me.

And in general, much like when you go to a Slayer concert, and the fire is shooting around etc, this game is like a celebration of the fun of evil iconography. Metal album covers etc. So that's the kind of horror I'd like to see represented.

On 11/24/2018 at 3:04 PM, Guydoom said:

I agree with you with most of your points but as everyone else said, jumpscares are a no no.

But with what Doom is now there's almost no way to make it scary, you already know you're God himself so there's nothing holding you back from moving forward, blasting.

At this point, the only way they can make Doom scary again is if Aubrey Hodges once again contributes the soundtrack.

This is a long thread so forgive me if somebody already mentioned this, but the people at id seem to be going for a very specific confident tone for every facet of this stuff. If you listen to their interviews they talk about about putting the power fantasy above everything else, and Hugo Martin's noclip interview talks a lot about 80s action heros. To have some parts that seem spooky doesnt seem to be what they want, they want you to always feel like a badass above all else.

I personally think overcoming my fears on a meta level actually increases how 'totally awesome' i feel, but I understand that for broad appeal they want every gamer playing this to just feel as powerful and feared as possible. Plus, playing the game on harder difficulties probably already helps with that effect of overcoming great odds.

Doom is a FPS shoot em up first and fore most, but is it pure shoot em up? No. People who think otherwise are probably the pea-brained idiots that unironically think  Brutal Doom is the definitive version of Classic Doom (despite it just being 13y-o Edgelord Doom)

The points have already been made: The devs intended Doom (the OG 1st game) to be a FPS about a lone survivor becoming a badass through the terror, and hordes they encounter, many of Doom's levels use darkness and traps to elevate terror and action. And I wouldn't quote Marty Stratton or Hugo Martin either, because they didn't make the original fucking game. And thus their vision of Doom is: basically Palatable Edgelord Doom (Not calling them shit devs BTW as they're quite the opposite)

Anyhow, Doomslayer is basically Invulnerable Power Armoured Armoury Wielding Death Machine (probably) blessed by (the angel of death) Samael, it'd make sense for him (and by extension) the player not to be or feel scared at any point, because he's already been through this bullshit, he's basically unstoppable and of course very angry, contrast to DooM he's a lone survivor armed with a pistol, marine training, and standard military gear, he'd be ripped to shreds easily (Demons chewed up his Squad like wet tissue paper) so it'd make sense that there'd be a dash of horror, dark atmosphere, and a boatload terror.

Also another thing that needs to be brought up: John Carmack was basically the creative designer of Doom, and we all know he treats his games as glorified engine demos.

Fuck Jump Scares too.

33 minutes ago, XLightningStormL said:

I wouldn't quote Marty Stratton or Hugo Martin either, because they didn't make the original fucking game

This seems to be directed at my comment saying: "If you listen to their interviews they talk about about putting the power fantasy above everything else, and Hugo Martin's noclip interview talks a lot about 80s action heros."

If it is directed at me, I find that super weird. I wasn't talking about the creative direction of the original game, in fact I addressed what I considered the original game's creative direction with the other line: "I personally think overcoming my fears on a meta level actually increases how 'totally awesome' i feel."

I referenced them for the sake of explaining what direction they want to take the series in, which is the topic of this discussion.

2 hours ago, XLightningStormL said:

is it pure shoot em up? No. People who think otherwise are probably the pea-brained idiots that unironically think  Brutal Doom is the definitive version of Classic Doom (despite it just being 13y-o Edgelord Doom)

Take it easy Tiger. Just because people don't share the same opinion as u doesn't mean u should call them pea-brained idiots.

And what does BD have to do with this. BD and Doom 2016 are very different from each each other.

I do not want to see Doom 3 style horror.  However, I would welcome the foreboding atmosphere found in Doom 64 and parts of the Inferno (mainly Limbo and House of Pain).

5 hours ago, EtherBot said:

This seems to be directed at my comment saying: "If you listen to their interviews they talk about about putting the power fantasy above everything else, and Hugo Martin's noclip interview talks a lot about 80s action heros."

Until I replayed Doom 1 & 2 just before Doom 2016 was released I always played Doom as described by Hugo: idkfa and have fun - like an 80s action hero ;-)

On 11/25/2018 at 6:52 AM, Touchdown said:

 

Well you hinted at that by saying the non-action parts are just a mere background and I don't really agree with that. The original game is definitely more focused on the atmosphere of danger which is omitted in DOOM4 and completely gone in Eternal. I don't think DOOM needs to be a strict horror game but I'd love to see more gritty and grotesque stuff, darker atmosphere of facing overwhelming odds. But that's not gonna happen with the current direction.

I'm not sure what you're talking about when the originals games had an "atmosphere of danger". The thing is, even in the creepier levels of the original game I don't feel very vulnerable when I can often just obliterate the foes in front of me with a plasma gun. There's some creepy moments, sure, but when I come across them I more often than not think "These demons need to pay for what they have done to innocent people!" rather than "Oh fuck I'm screwed!", which I feel DOOM 2016 and (even judging from the 16 minutes of gameplay we have) DOOM Eternal encapsulate pretty well.

Then again, I don't find DOOM 3 scary either (and I think it's even outright laughable at points when I got used to its tricks) and IMO it doesn't compare to something like AVP Classic 2000 so idk.

The original DOOM had quite a few "NOPE" moments. Opening the door to the last room in Phobos Lab with the light fading in and out or going into the dark maze in Halls of the Damned. Then some of the levels were downright hostile to the player - the confusing progression in the Unholy Cathedral that involved a number of teleporters disorienting players by dumping them into the same place over and over again or Limbo where the player had to navigate a hazardous environments trying to solve a "puzzle" while being constantly forced into the damaging blood. A lot of levels had insidious traps like the infamous fake exit in Halls of the Damned or pretty much the entirety of Monster Condo.

But I'm a guy who wrote this about the tone of DOOM so I'm clearly not on the same page as people who think DOOM is just action action endless badassery. That's why while I enjoyed DOOM4 greatly and I expect Eternal to be at least as good, I'm in a perpetual disagreement with how id handled the atmosphere of it and how a lot of people perceive the entire franchise.

21 hours ago, chemo said:

The thing is, even in the creepier levels of the original game I don't feel very vulnerable when I can often just obliterate the foes in front of me with a plasma gun

If I can interject this, to me, feels a bit like the seinfeld effect or whatever people call it.

Immersive graphics for the time it was made, monsters who are genuinely dangerous (and whos voices you can hear behind corners -- their growls, actually), an actual descent into hellish bloodscapes, flickering corridors, some areas that are actually just pitch black, resource scavenging mechanics and also pretty awkward controls. These traits sound familiar...what am I reminded of?

Oh right, Silent Hill on the PS1.

And don't forget to put player progress into consideration. The atmosphere and monster growls would have had a greater effect when you don't know what to expect or how to handle it. Sadly it's short lived as we learn and adapt.

Come to think of it the beauty of Doom is how you can easily experience the game as a creepy, tense experience or go straight into action packed shooter. Doom 3 in comparision won't give you that option due to design choice and technical limitations. If you get bored of the core aspect of the game, it has nothing left to offer.

4 hours ago, Touchdown said:

The original DOOM had quite a few "NOPE" moments. Opening the door to the last room in Phobos Lab with the light fading in and out or going into the dark maze in Halls of the Damned. Then some of the levels were downright hostile to the player - the confusing progression in the Unholy Cathedral that involved a number of teleporters disorienting players by dumping them into the same place over and over again or Limbo where the player had to navigate a hazardous environments trying to solve a "puzzle" while being constantly forced into the damaging blood. A lot of levels had insidious traps like the infamous fake exit in Halls of the Damned or pretty much the entirety of Monster Condo.

 

But I'm a guy who wrote this about the tone of DOOM so I'm clearly not on the same page as people who think DOOM is just action action endless badassery. That's why while I enjoyed DOOM4 greatly and I expect Eternal to be at least as good, I'm in a perpetual disagreement with how id handled the atmosphere of it and how a lot of people perceive the entire franchise.

The problem with most of moments like you have mentioned is that they can either lose their feeling of complete dread when you can still easily take out what's in front of you (Phobos Lab room, Hall of the Damned maze), come off as less like a method of causing tension and more like a cheap way of taking health away from you, especially with it clashing with the action focus of the rest of the game (the damaging floors in Limbo), or they're so brief and uncommon that they don't have much of a bearing on what makes DOOM's atmosphere and tone what it is.

2 hours ago, EtherBot said:

If I can interject this, to me, feels a bit like the seinfeld effect or whatever people call it.

 

Immersive graphics for the time it was made, monsters who are genuinely dangerous (and whos voices you can hear behind corners -- their growls, actually), an actual descent into hellish bloodscapes, flickering corridors, some areas that are actually just pitch black, resource scavenging mechanics and also pretty awkward controls. These traits sound familiar...what am I reminded of?

 

Oh right, Silent Hill on the PS1.

Even if a game hasn't aged well in certain aspects I can at least appreciate them for how innovative they were to the industry at the time. For example, I think Half-Life 1's story isn't all that special for today's standards and the game is filled to the brim with unintended cheese what with all the scientists with only four distinct faces and the same voice screaming "STAHP!" in a low bitrate, but I still see it as a landmark title for video game narratives (though it helps that as a shooter it's still fun today). With DOOM, it had clearly set the way for action-based first-person shoot-em-ups for years to come and the many "DOOM clones" of the 90s like Rise of the Triad and Duke Nukem 3D make that clear. Even if DOOM's gameplay didn't age well (though obviously it has), I would still appreciate it in that respect. Did it set us for atmospheric horror titles? Not really. Alone in the Dark, System Shock, and especially Resident Evil were basically the ones to start that trend.

54 minutes ago, chemo said:

"STAHP!"

"OH MY GOD, WE'RE ALL DOOOOMED"

I wouldn't say that Doom was a landmark for survival horror necessarily, but as far as being generally atmospheric I think it certainly was a landmark for gaming and paved the way for those games you mention.

32 minutes ago, EtherBot said:

I wouldn't say that Doom was a landmark for survival horror necessarily, but as far as being generally atmospheric I think it certainly was a landmark for gaming and paved the way for those games you mention.

Perhaps it did help influence the direction of game atmospheres going forward, such as the use of grotesque images, but I think DOOM's part in that aspect wasn't as big as what it had in action-focused FPS (or at least it was more indirect). Also to correct you Alone in the Dark predated DOOM, so there's that I guess.

1 hour ago, EtherBot said:

"OH MY GOD, WE'RE ALL DOOOOMED"

"They're waiting for you Gordon, in the tesssssssssst chamberrrrrrrr."

I would agree that OG Doom had a little more horror in it than the newest generation. Examples include being a little less vibrant (brown in particular had a more faded quality) and having you traverse rooms that were dark (darkness in Doom 2016 seem to be mostly in areas you can't get to).

However, considering where the tone of OG Doom was and how Doom 2016 is treated as a sort-of-maybe sequel, it really makes sense that horror takes more of a backseat in the newest generation.

Whether or not you subscribe to the theory of the Doom Slayer being OG Doomguy, the fact remains that he is a character that has been killing Demons for a long-ass time to a point where they're basically routine now.

The greater presence of horror makes sense in OG Doom where the Doomguy may have been a bit of a bloodthirsty, battle-craving badass with a truly beastly arsenal, but he was still essentially a Human facing Demons for the first time. I suspect he used his love of guns and his bloodthirst as a coping mechanism then, but he's been at it for ages now and appears to have completely lost himself to said bloodlust and love of big guns. Combine that with how much more powerful he has become (lorewise) and the overly colourful and bombastic style suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Much as I sympathize with OP's wishes, I'm going to join the choir of "They should make a new Quake game that puts emphasis on horror atmosphere akin to Quake 1 and Doom 64" and just keep the new Doom series firmly on the power-fantasy track, because if Doom 2016 has taught me anything, it's that the power-fantasy feels far closer to home (i.e. Doom's roots) than something like Doom 3 or even Doom 64.

The latter two are all fine and good in their own way, but they sure as Hell don't feel the same as OG Doom as far as I'm concerned (for the record OG Doom wasn't all gloom and all-ambience all the time; that is an important distinction to make, just like it wasn't all metal and all raw action all the time).

18 hours ago, chemo said:

The problem with most of moments like you have mentioned is that they can either lose their feeling of complete dread when you can still easily take out what's in front of you (Phobos Lab room, Hall of the Damned maze), come off as less like a method of causing tension and more like a cheap way of taking health away from you, especially with it clashing with the action focus of the rest of the game (the damaging floors in Limbo), or they're so brief and uncommon that they don't have much of a bearing on what makes DOOM's atmosphere and tone what it is.

You're speaking like it's an objective truth but it's not. Plenty of people enjoy the atmosphere of DOOM. Moments like the ones I mentioned coupled with the dark soundtrack playing in many levels have a potential of creating a dreadful vibe that many of us associate with the franchise. If you don't get it or if it doesn't affect you then there's really nothing else anyone can say to that. But I've gotta say that if you play something like House of Pain, Toxin Refinery, Against thee Wickedly or any of the levels mentioned before (though you probably consider AtW to be too inconvenient for your action-oriented experience), listening to the original soundtrack and you still are constantly in the "BAAH!!! DEMON SLEEYAAHH MURDER DEMONZZ!" mode then it looks to me like you're only paying attention to half of the game.

And it's kind of funny how you tried to discredit people who think dark atmosphere is an integral part of DOOM by claiming that they're just affected by their childhood experiences yet your example of a scary game is AvP and I bet that opinion doesn't come from playing it recently as an adult. I played it back in the day as a kid and going through the Marine campaign was an absolutely horrifying experience. But I'm not affected by fast moving screeching monsters anymore and I wouldn't even think of bringing it up as a scary game. Atmospheric, maybe. But I still think DOOM3 had better atmosphere and ambience.

2 hours ago, dsm said:

I'm going to join the choir of "They should make a new Quake game that puts emphasis on horror atmosphere akin to Quake 1 and Doom 64"

You can be sure that if they ever make a new SP Quake inspired by Q1 the protagonist is gonna be another ultimate inter-dimensional demon-slaying badass.

I hope Doom Eternal is Doom '16 with a bunch of new features. Horror in my Doom? No thanks. I've been playing original Doom since I was 6 years old and the only scary thing about it was the first time I encountered a revenant on map 06 -- and only because it was a new monster and the way it was introduced was essentially a jumpscare. Doom is a shooter game with some puzzle elements. Yes, some levels are more atmospheric and slower paced than the others, but that's it. Heck, even Doom 3 is a much better (and easier) game if you stop playing it cautiously like a horror game and instead play it aggressively like you would play classic Doom or Doom '16.

IMO Doom '16 got the original Doom atmosphere and gameplay perfectly right, as well as the badass protagonist who doesn't need any cheesy voice lines to be badass, and even the music, which I know a lot of people don't like, is perfectly right for the game. You know, like heavy metal was a cool thing in the 90s, that's essentially what Mick Gordon's noisy-dubsteppy-whatever-kids-these-days-call-it music is today, and it fits the game perfectly. So yeah, I just want more of the same, with added Archviles and continued plot.

On 11/27/2018 at 7:56 PM, chemo said:

Then again, I don't find DOOM 3 scary either (and I think it's even outright laughable at points when I got used to its tricks) and IMO it doesn't compare to something like AVP Classic 2000 so idk.

I don't know if I'd call AvP scary. It sure as hell is intense as the marine though, I replayed it a few weeks ago and I was constantly going like "FUCK FUCK FUCK". Seriously, I don't think there's any other game that gets me to swear as much :P

On 11/29/2018 at 2:32 PM, Touchdown said:

You can be sure that if they ever make a new SP Quake inspired by Q1 the protagonist is gonna be another ultimate inter-dimensional demon-slaying badass.

That'd be a really stupid move on id's part. Unlike Doom, Quake does actually have a pretty evident horror atmosphere, and most people remember the game for its lovecraftian theme. We already have a demon-killing badass with nu-Doom, going the exact same route with another product would just be silly.

6 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

 

I don't know if I'd call AvP scary. It sure as hell is intense as the marine though, I replayed it a few weeks ago and I was constantly going like "FUCK FUCK FUCK". Seriously, I don't think there's any other game that gets me to swear as much :P

 

 

That'd be a really stupid move on id's part. Unlike Doom, Quake does actually have a pretty evident horror atmosphere, and most people remember the game for its lovecraftian theme. We already have a demon-killing badass with nu-Doom, going the exact same route with another product would just be silly.

Not only that, they would cannibalize Quake's sales if they made it similar to Doom.

4 hours ago, KVELLER said:

I don't know if I'd call AvP scary. It sure as hell is intense as the marine though, I replayed it a few weeks ago and I was constantly going like "FUCK FUCK FUCK". Seriously, I don't think there's any other game that gets me to swear as much :P

Agreed, both AvP 2000 and also the 2010 one aren't scary at all. They both share some elements but otherwise they're just action intense and brutal (see the Predator executions in AvP 2010 for an example).

This is proof that horror in Doom can work:

On 12/4/2018 at 4:21 PM, KVELLER said:

That'd be a really stupid move on id's part. Unlike Doom, Quake does actually have a pretty evident horror atmosphere, and most people remember the game for its lovecraftian theme. We already have a demon-killing badass with nu-Doom, going the exact same route with another product would just be silly.

Evident horror atmosphere you say? You mean that game with bunny hopping, rocket jumping and a protagonist that single-handedly destroys hundreds of monsters like some kind of super human? And that gigantic axe covered in blood? He's clearly a blood-thirsty killing machine! (that's what people would say)

Just take look at this (in case you've forgotten) and then tell me again there's an evident horror atmosphere:

That's literally the first thing you see and hear when you launch the game, and the mood it sets is not that of a horror game, it's a "let's kick some monster ass" kind of mood.

Yeah, there's the lovecraftian visual theme and some creepy ambient music throughout the game, but the gameplay is devoid of horror elements, completely so. There's no sense of danger, no unknown evil to haunt you, and no enemies that you can't overcome the moment you meet them. There's only cannon fodder to unload some nails and rockets into. You're a badass monster slayer that stops for nothing; always the hunter, never the prey.

@Rathori Sure, but it does create some atmosphere with the music and visuals. I'm not saying that if a new Quake was developed, id would have to make a horror game a la Doom 3, but it would be silly to strip out from the game the only thing that differentiates it from Doom.

4 hours ago, KVELLER said:

@Rathori Sure, but it does create some atmosphere with the music and visuals. I'm not saying that if a new Quake was developed, id would have to make a horror game a la Doom 3, but it would be silly to strip out from the game the only thing that differentiates it from Doom.

They stripped it of the horror element in Quake 2 and Quake 3, but it came back full force in Quake 4.

1 hour ago, RileyXY1 said:

They stripped it of the horror element in Quake 2 and Quake 3, but it came back full force in Quake 4.

I was talking about an hypothetical sequel/reboot to the first game though. About Q4, it does have some quite... shocking moments, but it doesn't seem to be its focus.