The Ancient Gods -- review from someone who DIDN'T like it

Don't like the lore and story? Ignore it and mash the Enter button to skip cutscenes.

I'm going to get rid of this post since I felt like it was in poor tastes. While some people have gotten a little unruly in this thread, most of the responses seem to be actually fleshed out and rather insightful, and my irritation was mostly in regards to some previous threads. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Hunting4r2d2

I just dislikes the bruh moment-jrpg tier ending

1 hour ago, Doom64hunter said:

As it stands however, if you enter this wave with 0 lives and 100 HP like I did, you're going to die over and over and over again until you get lucky and somehow manage to brute-force your way through.

 

I agree.

 

I think the final phase of Samur's fight is overtuned. I died in that one phase probably more times than I did in the entire DLC, which isn't a sign of good difficulty progression. There's a few changes I would make: (1) the Spirits shouldn't grant increased health because they already have a lot of immunity and resistance. The increased attack speed and movement speed also make Spirits quite deadly for most players, increasing health just turns them into bullet sponges. (2) The Blood Maykrs should just appear on the Samur phases only as they add too much pressure on the Spirit phases. If the Blood Maykrs refilled health completely, then they could also be fine in the Spirit phase- but apparently they've also nerfed Maykr Drone health refills so I don't think they're interested in that mechanic anymore. (3) In terms of finale flavor - there should be a fifth phase where we fight Samur one more time. I didn't notice before, but it is a bit strange the final encounter of the DLC ends with a Spirit fight instead of a boss fight.

 

2 hours ago, Linguica said:

I also dislike how the reactive gameplay tuning necessitated by Battlemode balancing is making its way into the single player game

 

I also agree with this.

 

If I recall correctly in regards to the Marauder, they removed a total of three tech options against him: Frag Grenades no longer falter the Marauder, we cannot use double Lock-On Burst by circling around him, and we cannot use Ice Bomb to force him to block in another direction either. They're planning to nerf the Ice Bomb slightly in the future too for "top level play", which likely means increasing its cooldown. They didn't like people "relying" on Ballista combos and so the weapon inexplicably does lower damage to Spirits - however, the Precision Bolt remains their favourite and continues to find use: can be used in quick-swapping, used for sniping weak-points, and is the main way of dealing with Maykr Drones, Turrets, and Blood Maykrs. They wanted players to use Microwave Beam more often, so they designed an enemy that can only die to the Microwave Beam, which feels like a cheap way to get use out of the weapon. If anything, the Spirits should take extra damage from Microwave Beam, but can still die to anything else. That's how the Arbalest is already handled with flying enemies.

 

The balance tuning has been questionable so far since most people already say the game is difficult but they keep finding ways to nerf the existing arsenal or tactics.

 

1 hour ago, NeoWorm said:

Enviromental storytelling in Eternal is horrible. It doesn't tell a story, it just shows you something that probably should mean something and if you want to understand even fraction of it you HAVE to read the codex.

 

I disagree with this but it seems some people are conflating environmental storytelling with the main plot, its sense of progression, or consistency in tone. You don't need the Codex to understand the environment. Environmental storytelling is simply the story told through the environment. For example, let's look at Hell on Earth:

 

- You start off in an enclosed wooden structure that seems to shake periodically. Something is clearly going on outside and we don't know what. Once we complete the starting location, we learn that we were inside a temple on the back of a Hell Barge, which explains the shaking from before.

 

- Inside the temple, we see cages filled to the brim with human corpses, stuffed and perhaps even alive with their slight hand/head motions. We get the idea that this temple is where humans are being captured and imprisoned for some unknown purpose.

 

- Also inside the temple, we see corpses outside the cages, impaled or hung up from the walls/ceilings. Combined with what we've already seen, it seems that this temple is not only capturing humans but torturing and killing them in grotesque ways as well.

 

- Out on the streets, we see massive destroyed and motionless mechs in the distance. It's clear that humankind fought as best they could but failed anyways.

 

- We also see massive chasms throughout the city. This suggests the demon invasion also brought about deadly seismic activity that resulted in the upheaval of the city. Some buildings are tilted to one side as well.

 

- We see demons and Zombies in-fighting in the distance before we arrive. Even when victorious, the demons still need a target to fight against. The fact that the demons are fighting the Zombies also suggest that the demons enjoy picking on them, rather than fighting each other.

 

- Tentacles burst forth from the ground. This suggests that the demons not only have conquered overland, but that some sort of demonic growth has taken root beneath the very earth itself. The entire planet is corrupted.

 

- You enter various buildings that have been destroyed. Residences, a church, a parking lot, a subway station, and even a shopping mall. We see a lot of UAC spokesperson messages throughout the city, implying the UAC had an overarching grip on society.

 

- We see even more Hell Barges traveling in the distance. We've been inside one before, we know that the temples they carry also contain imprisoned and tortured humans.

 

- Using a portal, we enter a massive citadel that appears unlike anything else in the city. The music shifts into a demonic choir of some sort. It's clear the demons are bringing their structures into the human world and that this is a very unique and special place. The structure inside is very elaborate and open, suggesting a place of rank and importance if built in such a way.

 

All of the above can be determined without reading any Codex or even watching any cutscenes, because all of the above is told through its environment, i.e. environmental storytelling. If the player wants to know even more about the world that's been presented, they can read the Codex to learn about Hell Barges, Hell Priests, the extent of the invasion, how humanity fought back, etc. It's the same for every other level. Exultia's crumbling statues tell of past glory, the Cultist Base's skeletons and sarcophagi tell of ancient demons retrieved from the Arctic, DBH's machinery tell of the process of resurrecting and weaponizing Doom Hunters, etc.

 

---

 

The problem with Doom Eternal's story is that the main plot and Codex lore doesn't make much sense. As much as I enjoy to speculate and I'm still interested in seeing how they resolve the story, it feels like they took the wrong direction after 2016:

 

(1) The time skip didn't serve any narrative purpose. It adds confusion when you learn that Dr. Richardson's logs are recorded in 2163 and discusses the Slayer defending the Earth, with the ARC posters celebrating the 25th Annual Expo which implies a current date of 2176, but the ARC broadcasts state the Slayer hadn't been seen since Mars, i.e. 2149. If he hasn't been seen since then, what is Dr. Richardson talking about?

 

(2) Hayden's characterization has changed completely. He used to be the embodiment of UAC greed and arrogance. His research was going to kill him and he became a cold, calculating robot. That's a not-so-subtle symbolism of the UAC as a whole. Hayden didn't care about human life, he thought it was "the cost of progress". He allowed a demon cult to proliferate within the UAC. His interests were only in selling Argent Energy to mankind, the demons were an unfortunate side-effect to him. He sends the Slayer off with no way of retrieving him. Then in Doom Eternal, the Codex explains that Hayden has been leading the resistance on Earth. We would suspect trickery but Hayden is nothing but helpful the entire game. In The Ancient Gods, it's confirmed he's the Seraphim and that he was instructed by The Father to guide humankind in order to prepare them for the demons. Except none of that was hinted in 2016. When Hayden "turns back" into the Seraphim, they've effectively written Hayden out of the story. What's the narrative purpose of that? Why couldn't Hayden just be one character and the Seraphim be another? Nothing is gained by combining the two characters except confusion about motivations and reducing the total number of characters in the lore. The same thing happens with VEGA and the ARC intern ends up fulfilling his role anyways as the voice in your head - so what was the point of combining VEGA with The Father?

 

(3) They introduce some characters and don't ever mention them again like King Novik or The Betrayer. Wouldn't we want to see what happens to the Betrayer after his son is freed? The Betrayer was such a speculated character in 2016 lore and yet in Eternal they bring him in for one scene and doesn't do anything else. They have a lot of scenes of the effect the Slayer has on others around him - wouldn't it have been interesting to see the Betrayer perhaps inspired by the Slayer's will? There's certainly at least some storytelling potential to be had with a retired Night Sentinel who has given up.

 

(4) The Hell Priests are revealed to be Argenta, which makes the Argent D'Nur's betrayal even more weird because it was really the Hell Priests who were the betrayers, not the one titled the Betrayer himself. With names like Hell Priests, you'd assume they would be demons. The whole civil war within Argent D'Nur doesn't make much sense either considering the Slayer Testaments never mentioned it and I'm not even sure it was necessary either. It's not like we fight or interact with any traitorous Night Sentinels outside of a brief walk-by in Sentinel Prime. The Night Sentinels went from being a force that lost to Hell because of a betrayal from within - to a force that lost because they were splintered from a civil conflict over a difference in interests.

 

(5) In 2016 lore, the "seraphim" (written lower-case implying it wasn't a proper noun and likely just a group of angels, as seraphim is plural for seraph) blessed the Slayer with "terrible power and speed" - but in Doom Eternal we find out: the Seraphim is one individual, the Seraphim acted out of rebellion, the Seraphim didn't bless him but rather operated the Divinity Machine on him, and finally "terrible power and speed" is underselling it because apparently that event was when the Slayer was created. This implies that "Doom Slayer" isn't an earned title like 2016 implied, but rather a rank gifted to him. That's a lot less cool.

 

(6) The demons feel secondary to the UAC or the Maykrs. The entire conflict seems focused on the production and miracles of Argent Energy. Demons aren't supposed to be plundering aliens or mindless beasts - they're demons. In Eternal lore, we find out the exact process of extracting souls and the conversion of a husks into a demon. This feels like excessive explanation. Explaining how weapons work or the history of environments through the Codex is fine to me, but explaining how demons are created and how their energy source is formed feels like cutting out the mystery and magic. Shouldn't the understandable and science-driven human technology be in contrast to the unknown and evil demon magic? If we know how demons work, then they're really just a cruel and warmongering alien species.

 

There's probably more but that's what's off the top of my head. To re-iterate, Eternal should've expanded on the lore presented in 2016 instead of trying to re-define it into something else.

1 hour ago, AtimZarr1 said:

I disagree with this but it seems some people are conflating environmental storytelling with the main plot, its sense of progression, or consistency in tone. You don't need the Codex to understand the environment. Environmental storytelling is simply the story told through the environment. For example, let's look at Hell on Earth:

...

 

Yeah, I am kinda conflating two things, but I will still argue that the enviromental storytelling doesn't work in Eternal most of the time. There are parts that are ok, other part are utterly nonsensical in any way you can look at it or they are working against each other. Main storyline is integral part of the game, it's everywhere and it's forced upon every player, because it's necessary to understand why the scenery changes so often and so randomly. If you go through facility overriden by demons from hell and in the end find a huge portal that leads to hell, you don't need a ton of exposition to know why are you in hell. If you jump to some portal every five minutes and teleport to colorful random locations that have no connection to the previous one... Yeah that's something else and Eternal can't execute those transitions properly without overrelience on Codex.

 

Concerning the story, it reeks of total retcon. Either retcon, or they simply didn't have any idea how to continue 2016 story when they released it. Which is kinda sad, because 2016 story and portrayal of Doomslayer worked and Eternal just doesn't.

I think Seraphim in Eternal are still a class of angels, because those two idiots at the end are looking the same as Samur. And Eternal team just doesn't give two Fs about proper latin. Well neither they do about proper english, am I the only one who completely despises the work Maykr?

And yeah, they completely demystified Hell and Slayer to the point of making Hell just boring side faction.

On 10/21/2020 at 8:14 PM, Mr. Duk said:

I still felt that Doom 2016 was a bit better balanced, and I much preferred the vibe of Doom 2016; dark and mysterious and truly Hellish. Eternal was a bit too arcade-y for my tastes, and I wish the Hell levels had that darker more foreboding vibe of Doom 2016.

 

On 10/21/2020 at 8:14 PM, Mr. Duk said:

I think Doom 2016 is a masterpiece, and it was better than anything I ever could have expected. I'd still rank the original Dooms above it (partly because of all the custom modded content), but still, Doom 2016 absolutely was a worthy modern version of the game. I've played it start to finish 4 times. It's still fun to play in 2020.

 

It makes me happy to see other people on DW who think like this. I've honestly been finding it really weird how nobody really cares that Eternal seems to have scrapped 90% of the foundations doom 2016 had laid out, and i've found it even rarer to find people who even like Doom 2016 at all (even though it was so widely loved at launch). This is probably my biggest issue with Eternal (as much as many find it to be a petty complaint), just how it doesn't really try to take the best parts about Doom 2016, but rather ignores all of its biggest achievements like it was a failed experiment. I remember every time i saw interviews of John Romero or Sandy Petersen, they brought up the sense of paranoia, fear, suspense and sometimes horror of Doom 1, and while it wouldn't scare anyone nowadays, the whole prospect of a 3D, first person game made people so much easily immersed than what you have to do to achieve the same effect nowadays, and it clearly wasn't just accidental, since they've noticed this aspect of the game during playtesting and presumably ran with it. I feel that what new id Software is missing, is knowing how to both do a great narrative that isn't intrusive to gameplay (which Doom 2016 NAILED DOWN PERFECTLY, but that doesn't really matter since it's all a scrapped achievement to id now, it seems), AND knowing how to integrate that beautiful feeling of immersion and ambience that doesn't stop the flow of combat, but still enhances the game as a whole even for those who aren't too geeky about this kind of thing.

 

On 10/21/2020 at 8:14 PM, Mr. Duk said:

The other thing I've always loved about Doom is that it gives you player freedom in how you want to play it. I felt like Eternal was pushing too far into "you have to fight like this if you want to win", even though their dance of death had a lot to like about it. It just went a littttllleeee too far in that direction for my tastes.

 

Regarding this, it's also something i 100% agree with. I recognize that Doom Eternal has some genius thought put into its monsters, but for all that that's worth, it still doesn't compare to how nearly perfect the monster composition is in Doom 2, let me explain: In Doom 2, the AI is very basic for all monsters, which modern audiences find to be a negative but, it's actually half of the reason that Doom 2 is so much better designed and versatile than the newer games! To give an example, an archvile is the most complex enemy in Doom 2's enemy roster: he's able to run rather quickly, he attacks you with a delayed and brilliantly telegraphed hitscan explosion, and revives non-boss enemies. The archvile's attack is very powerful but it's easily avoidable given the player has got cover, and they're not being attacked by other demons, which brings us to the pinky: it MIGHT appear like just a bullet spongy weak enemy to some, but one of the most terrifying combinations there is in Doom 2, is an archvile supported by several pinkies, since they perfectly match each other's weaknesses, and leave it up to the level design itself to control how difficulty the scenario is to deal with, which is just one example of how BRILLIANT Doom 2's monsters are, for their simple mechanics and AI! Now, the Marauder is the closest you've got to Doom 2's Archvile in Eternal, yet he seems to have been designed to be an encounter all by himself: he has long ranged attacks, he has short ranged attacks, he's quite mobile, has a lot of health, a lot of damage, summons wolves and in every way is so much more complex and versatile than the Archvile from Doom 2, and that seems to just make his uses much more strict, given how unfair combat scenarios can get once you introduce two of them, or introduce them along with other heavy demons, which brings me to another point: This is also the reason that Doom 2 allows for brilliant low enemy count encounters, as well as slaughtermaps, while Eternal always has a consistent enemy count all throughout, which i find to be a HUUUGE detriment to the game's overall lifespan, and especially from its encounter variety and room for progression (which obviously relates to your points in this review)

 

Anyways i'm sorry for that massive wall of text lol, it just makes me very excited to talk about these things because it makes me imagine what a Doom game that learns from 2016, Eternal and the classics combined would look like, and it also makes me very happy to be reassured that i'm not crazy for criticizing Eternal, because for all that the majority is very open and calm, i've had experiences as bad as being called a "call of duty fanboy" (without ever bringing that franchise up) when criticizing Eternal or defending 2016, coming from the toxic vocal minority, so thank you for that :)

Edited October 24, 2020 by MattFright

6 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

The Marauder isn't the equivalent of an Archvile, it's the equivalent of placing a Cyberdemon in a huge room and forcing the player to fight it with a shotgun. It's not hard, it's just a boring bullet sponge that takes forever to die, but can be killed with no problems if you pay attention to it's attack sequences.

I had no issues with the Marauder on the base game for it being a rare encounter, but knowing it's being overused just to please the meme-makers who thinks "Doom Eternal is the most hardc0re game ever!!!!1", then he becomes a problem.

 

I think that's a fair assessment. The boss battle with the boxes felt this way, too. It's not particularly hard, it just drags and drags. Once you figure it out you still have 5-7 minutes of battle left to get through, even though you know exactly what to do. Shortening the battle but adding in a tougher monster in the final stage would have been more interesting but not as laborious (and just as difficult).

 

Someone suggested that the Marauder should be somewhat randomized so the amount of shots it takes to kill aren't always the same. I think that's a good idea, too. I always like enemies who have some variety to them. Complex Doom is one of my favorite mods for the classic games for this very reason.

 

On another note, I was able to one shot kill a Marauder in this DLC with the BFG. I shot the BFG right as a portal opened so it hit the Marauder the moment it entered, and it burst into pieces. I can't tell if that's a bug or an intended way to fight it. It was a total accident on my part.

I liked the reveal that Hell was originally a dimension called Jerkwad.

4 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Don't like the lore and story? Ignore it and mash the Enter button to skip cutscenes.

 

That's like saying "don't like the game? ignore it and move on to something else". It's about whether it's good or not, and the new id Software clearly appreciates criticism and hearing the community's thoughts about the games they produce and how to improve them. "ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist" is a mindset that benefits nobody, and only takes away from those who wished for something just a little bit better.

Edited October 23, 2020 by MattFright

3 minutes ago, MattFright said:

This is probably my biggest issue with Eternal (as much as many find it to be a petty complaint), just how it doesn't really try to take the best parts about Doom 2016, but rather ignores all of its biggest achievements like it was a failed experiment. I remember every time i saw interviews of John Romero or Sandy Petersen, they brought up the sense of paranoia, fear, suspense and sometimes horror of Doom 1, and while it wouldn't scare anyone nowadays, the whole prospect of a 3D, first person game made people so much easily immersed than what you have to do to achieve the same effect nowadays, and it clearly wasn't just accidental, since they've noticed this aspect of the game during playtesting and presumably ran with it.

 

I played Knee-Deep in the Dead in December 1993 as a (very young) child. In fact, I had been looking forward to Doom before it ever released, mainly because Commander Keen was the first game I ever played in my life at age 4. I was a fan of id but never got into Wolf 3D, and I thought Doom looked way more interesting. The original game absolutely creeped me out. Especially the imp sound effects when they're off-screen and when the barons first show up with their roar. It was a HORROR action game to me. The graphics looked -- for the time -- real, and the levels felt like real places that I was visiting. It's hard to remember just how groundbreaking that game was in 1993. It felt like a new reality.

10 hours ago, chemo said:

Okay, so all the monkey bars, fire chains, and floating codex pages are immersion breaking, but all the jump pads and floating, glowing orbs, plus the enemies that can explode into visible health and ammo pickups isn't? DOOM 2016 itself was filled with a ton of "arcadey" stuff.

 

You also have to keep in mind that the game largely takes place in alternate dimensions and a version of Earth ravaged by Hell. I think the suspension of disbelief can excuse some of the things seen in its levels.

 

You didn't exactly communicate it clearly that Eternal didn't completely lack environmental storytelling, since you specifically said that it's something DOOM 2016 and Classic DOOM have. Can you elaborate why Eternal doesn't do a good enough job of it and lacks atmosphere besides the floating codex pickups and an extremely vague summary of it being "cartoony", anyway? I'm not seeing it when I'm finding, among many other examples, things like the abandoned hospital in the Super Gore Nest or even the ancient ruins in the Cultist and Doom Hunter Bases.

 

Besides, how else do you think they should convey some of this lore in a DOOM game other than text files? It's a general rule that excessive and frequent cutscenes and exposition don't belong in this series and gameplay should come first. Background details shouldn't be shoved down people's throats if they don't care. Maybe it wouldn't be the best storytelling device in some other games, but for DOOM, it makes sense. Not to mention, the codex is a holdover from DOOM 2016, anyway, except now you don't have to fidget around so much in the levels to pick some of the entries up.

 

By the way, I'm glad that things like the keycards and codex pages can just be run over to be picked up now. It keeps the game's pace up.

In my opinion, adding even more arcade elements wasn't a great choice in terms of style. In both games I could do without the flashing enemies, health drops, armor drops, etc. The monkey bars, fire chains, and jump pads aren't as immersion breaking, but most of them don't necessarily enhance the gameplay either. I don't hate the platforming sections as much as some people seem to, but they get annoying when replaying levels. Eternal already has cutscenes, instead of adding more, they should have made the cutscenes more meaningful instead of "everybody afraid of the big bad Doomguy" or "lol u can't shoot a hole in mars" or "le epic badass Doomguy" if they had such a well thought-out plot to convey. If the space is already set aside for cutscenes, make them count.

 

The codex was indeed present in 2016, but that game also didn't have silly cards floating around to further kill the game's atmosphere.

 

I'm not the first person to insinuate that Eternal is more cartoony than 2016 either. The added, aforementioned powerups, floating key cards, silly cutscenes, codex cards, even more armor drops, monkey bars, platforming segments, etc. don't do the setting a lot of justice. This is on top of the fact that the game is overall less gritty than 2016, with a more colorful palette, humans with exaggerated expressions, and executions like the one you perform on Cacodemons, where their eye makes a "pop!" sound straight out of Looney Tunes. The enemies in Eternal look a lot less foreboding than those in 2016, and are oftentimes less detailed than their 2016 counterparts. The Hell levels in Eternal are also less foreboding than their 2016 counterparts, and the focus in Eternal shifts to a much more high fantasy inspired atmosphere. I'm willing to bet that if you were to conduct a poll, most people would agree that Eternal had a more cartoony aesthetic overall. The classic maps hidden in 2016 were a bit silly, but a good tribute to classic Doom. Eternal has things that are less prominent, but more silly, like the Doomslayer having a skateboard and figurines and pun books in his fortress.

 

But regardless, I apologize for being rude, because when I read your comment last night it came across as more agressive/conceited than it seems today.

 

 

@MattFright totally agree. Not as bad as when people tell you "don't criticize it if you can't do it better" though :P

Edited October 23, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

In regards to the lore, if Doom 2016 explained the civil war, hell priests and corruption via tablets and even some insights from Samuel Hayden, we would be entering Eternal much more informed (for those who paid attention). As soon as we grab the first Hell priest by the neck, we would immediately know the purpose. But I still don't quite understand the dissolving coin prior killing them. It's all convoluted.

 

I'm certain id Software didn't have an actual story path nor lore finalised in Doom 2016. So they just threw in lots of random names and vague lore that's too raw to speculate a solid conclusion. Then Eternal went the path of a much heavier fantasy and it sort of feels contradictory to Samuel Hayden's agenda and makes the betrayer's story / lore redundant despite putting him in the limelight for a scene.

 

The lore is fine, but doesn't impress me. I'm not a big fan of its implementation either. Samuel Hayden should be the seflish rogue who plotted the Father's, Urdaks and Maykrs demise for him to become a powerhouse in Heaven. Alternatively, stick with story of him being of Human descent with a questionable ethic code for the greater good of humanity (with his personal benefit in mind).

Edited October 26, 2020 by Chezza

1 hour ago, Chezza said:

In regards to the lore, if Doom 2016 explained the civil war, hell priests and corruption via tablets and even some insights from Samuel Hayden, we would be entering Eternal much more informed (for those who paid attention). As soon as we grab the first Hell priest by the neck, we would immediately know the purpose. But I still don't quite understand the dissolving coin prior killing them. It's all convoluted.

This is my issue with the story. Eternal feels like we're playing the sequel to 2016's sequel. There's just so much infomation thrown at us that we're unable to digest it and make it fit with the information we already have. That on top of the retcons, and tonal whiplash make the story feel very sloppy.

Overall, Ancient Gods was fun, but it makes me want to go map lolol.

13 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I find it funny how using Audio Logs and Notes is considered "Lazy" but  Cutscenes are okay somehow, when they actively take you out of the game without your control THEN Force Feed Information.

To c&p my response to another post:

 

Eternal already has cutscenes, instead of adding more, they should have made the cutscenes more meaningful instead of "everybody afraid of the big bad Doomguy" or "lol u can't shoot a hole in mars" or "le epic badass Doomguy" if they had such a well thought-out plot to convey. If the space is already set aside for cutscenes, make them count.

 

The codex was indeed present in 2016, but that game also didn't have silly cards floating around to further kill the game's atmosphere.

 

Cutscenes actually require a decent amount of effort, compared to audio/text logs. A cutscene is only lazy if it's a lazily made cutscene. Taking the time to show me the plot isn't half as lazy as filling up a bunch of textlogs.

49 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Cutscenes actually require a decent amount of effort, compared to audio/text logs. A cutscene is only lazy if it's a lazily made cutscene. Taking the time to show me the plot isn't half as lazy as filling up a bunch of textlogs.

 

Well obviously Cutscenes will take more effort to Make than text logs, since it does take cinematography and some writing.

 

But Cutscenes are MUCH more lazy since all it does is Force feed information to the player who may not even want it or would want to look at it at his own pace.

you are basically saying "LOL here's a video because we have to show you this without your consent, STORY NOW! PLAY LATER".

 

You seem to confuse efficient/Less Time waste with Lazy.

by this logic the graphics in games like Dusk and Amid evil are bad  because it took less effort than the graphics in Anthem or Far Cry 5.

 

Less effort = Lazy right?

1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

 

Well obviously Cutscenes will take more effort to Make than text logs, since it does take cinematography and some writing.

 

But Cutscenes are MUCH more lazy since all it does is Force feed information to the player who may not even want it or would want to look at it at his own pace.

you are basically saying "LOL here's a video because we have to show you this without your consent, STORY NOW! PLAY LATER".

 

You seem to confuse efficient/Less Time waste with Lazy.

by this logic the graphics in games like Dusk and Amid evil are bad  because it took less effort than the graphics in Anthem or Far Cry 5.

 

Less effort = Lazy right?

Dusk and Amid Evil don't aspire to have an epic plot and have no real textlogs or cutscenes. If you don't want your game to have a plot, that's fine. The problem is when you have a massive, epic tale told in the most uninspiring fashion possible. I don't see how a cutscene is more lazy. If you don't want to see it because you don't care about it, skip it, just like a textlog. Cutscenes are already present in Eternal, but aren't used to good effect. But unlike the textlogs, cutscenes would at least be more interesting for the people who DO care about the plot. I don't understand the comparison of graphics regarding Anthem or Far Cry. But Eternal's graphics at times are worse than 2016. For example, Doomguy revealing his low resolution facial texturing before putting his helmet on. A perfect example of another problem. They show Doomguy's face one time in the whole game, but couldn't take the time to give him a model/texture that looks good. Which can be attributed to laziness or not having the budget to do what they want to do. If you are going to do something, do it right.

 

Having time saving/efficient strategies is good, if your game's style works around it. For example, Dusk and Amid Evil are great because they don't aspire to be anything other than a retro style shooter. But if Anthem or Far Cry 5 had gun models that looked like they belong in Dusk, that would be an issue. Work around your budget and abilities, if you don't do that, you have an ambitious but unpolished mess. Not saying Eternal is a mess, but it has issues because id couldn't streamline their ideas efficiently, in terms of plot or gameplay. If id can't figure out an interesting way to tell their epic, they should drop and go for something minimalistic, like Dusk or Amid Evil or Doom or Doom 2 or Doom 2016 or Blood or Duke Nukem or Shadow Warrior, or really any other game made to be a fast-paced FPS. They are mostly inappropriate to the genre in general, save for exploratory FPS/RPGs like Bioshock of Deus Ex. In the end, I doubt many people play DOOM to read. I also hate them in NuWolfenstein, and I think even with Eternal's issues, NuWolfenstein isn't fit to eat NuDoom's ass.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

 

 

 

 

exactly, devs force feeding information by taking control away, instead of giving players freedom to look at it at their own time is lazy.

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree, For me Cutscenes are the laziest way you give information to players. instead of having the player look into it, with books and text and audio devices. you just play a video and your done... A VIDEO You cant control, in an interactive medium, thats lazy.

Edited October 24, 2020 by jazzmaster9

10 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

In my opinion, adding even more arcade elements wasn't a great choice in terms of style. In both games I could do without the flashing enemies, health drops, armor drops, etc. The monkey bars, fire chains, and jump pads aren't as immersion breaking, but most of them don't necessarily enhance the gameplay either. I don't hate the platforming sections as much as some people seem to, but they get annoying when replaying levels. Eternal already has cutscenes, instead of adding more, they should have made the cutscenes more meaningful instead of "everybody afraid of the big bad Doomguy" or "lol u can't shoot a hole in mars" or "le epic badass Doomguy" if they had such a well thought-out plot to convey. If the space is already set aside for cutscenes, make them count.

 

The codex was indeed present in 2016, but that game also didn't have silly cards floating around to further kill the game's atmosphere.

 

I'm not the first person to insinuate that Eternal is more cartoony than 2016 either. The added, aforementioned powerups, floating key cards, silly cutscenes, codex cards, even more armor drops, monkey bars, platforming segments, etc. don't do the setting a lot of justice. This is on top of the fact that the game is overall less gritty than 2016, with a more colorful palette, humans with exaggerated expressions, and executions like the one you perform on Cacodemons, where their eye makes a "pop!" sound straight out of Looney Tunes. The enemies in Eternal look a lot less foreboding than those in 2016, and are oftentimes less detailed than their 2016 counterparts. The Hell levels in Eternal are also less foreboding than their 2016 counterparts, and the focus in Eternal shifts to a much more high fantasy inspired atmosphere. I'm willing to bet that if you were to conduct a poll, most people would agree that Eternal had a more cartoony aesthetic overall. The classic maps hidden in 2016 were a bit silly, but a good tribute to classic Doom. Eternal has things that are less prominent, but more silly, like the Doomslayer having a skateboard and figurines and pun books in his fortress.

 

But regardless, I apologize for being rude, because when I read your comment last night it came across as more agressive/conceited than it seems today.

 

 

@MattFright totally agree. Not as bad as when people tell you "don't criticize it if you can't do it better" though :P

That's the thing; DOOM 2016 had so much "arcadey" and "cartoony" stuff to begin with. Why is it so much worse now than it was before? All of this isn't even spread out - you're seeing glowing pickups, jump pads, action figure collectibles, over the top weapon alt-fires, and yes, even silly enemy designs constantly (such as the Barons, Imps, Lost Souls, and Pinkies - to the point where the last two are almost completely unchanged in Eternal). While DOOM 2016 does have some more "gritty" designs, they aren't as prominent, clash with, and are undermined by all these other elements. The lack of color occasionally seen in that game just made it all look uglier. All it did was remind me of the typical color palettes seen seventh-gen games (not really surprising considering the game's history). How does the additional vibrancy detract from the atmosphere? Did games like System Shock 2 or films like Midsommar suffer because most of the environments and designs in those works aren't dark and monochromatic? Even the original DOOM games were very colorful at times.

 

Besides, some of these "arcadey" and "cartoony" elements serve a practical gameplay purpose and aren't just aesthetic choices. Those aforementioned glowing pickups, including the keycards, 1-Ups, and, yes, even the codex pages, are the way they are so that they're easy to spot and pick up within the environment. Sound effects like the Caco's "eyeball popping"? It makes the combat feel meatier. Without all that, the gameplay would be more tedious and less satisfying. By the way, I don't understand what the big deal is with the platforming, either. It makes the areas between fights more than just boring hallways and paths.

 

Note that I said excessive cutscenes and exposition don't belong in DOOM. It's incredibly obvious that DOOM Eternal already has cutscenes, except that they're short in length (like, a couple minutes tops, and at least several don't even hit the one minute mark), aren't very common, give necessary basics about the main story, and even out the pacing by giving breathers between gameplay sections. If all the lore in the game were to be told within cinematics, it would be way, WAY more prevalent than they are now, and it would start feeling more like Metal Gear Solid rather than DOOM.

 

And if you say that the codex is a lazy storytelling device, then why isn't it an issue in DOOM 2016? The only difference in execution is the look and visibility of the pickups.

 

16 hours ago, Doom64hunter said:

Hard disagree on that.

 

Doom 2016 had very distinct locations that all had its purpose in-universe. The Foundry, the Argent Tower, the Lazarus Labs, Vega Core. All of these locations tell you a part of the story about what happened at the UAC -- the Argent Tower is how they extracted the Hell Energy and beamed it to Earth, the Lazarus Labs is where Olivia performed her fucked up experiments, Advanced Research Complex is where the BFG was prototyped and developed, Vega Core is where the artificial intelligence operates from. Even the hell levels involve storytelling -- the holograms detailing the journey of Hayden and UAC marines through hell, how he found the Doomslayer, the Doomslayer's past battles with Titans, and finally Argent d'Nur, the world hell assimilated.

 

What kind of locations on the other hand, are Cultist and Doom Hunter Base supposed to be? I'd probably have to look it up inside some lore tablet, because right now, from what I can remember these are just snowy game levels where you get introduced to the Doomhunter boss, and where the second hell priest is hiding. I legitimately do not remember the in-universe reason for their existence.

 

Hell On Earth starts you right in the middle of a wooden structure with very little rhyme or reason as to why -- you don't know why the Doomguy is going there, or what happened since the previous game. You kill some dude after blowing up a bunch of imps, then jump down and a huge demon emerges. Why is it there, why doesn't it kill you? Who knows! Gotta read the lore to get that information.

 

Mars Core is also a total mystery to me looking back. Why are there UAC employees on Phobos? What are they doing there? What is the BFG 10K shooting at? Are they fighting the demons or helping them? Did the UAC go back to Mars? How did they do that without the help of Hayden and Argent Energy? The list goes on.

 

I could go on about why I don't understand this point of view, but I think AtimZarr1's summary of the Hell on Earth level earlier in the thread already did a good job of explaining things.

There is a lot when you narrate a story, that has to do with suspension of disbelief. Suspension of disbelief is a voluntary act by the beholder to dismiss some points in order to enjoy the story.

 

So of course in doom 2016 there are several arcade components and of course the story is completely invented, but the beholder can overcome these points. Hayden is a men that was dying of cancer and managed to transfer his mind on a robotic body? Cool. 

But also Hayden is now a angel and he did a bunch of stuff because reasons then he got into a man body just because, and then he got into a robot body and then back into the angel body and then Hayden was the demons... Just LOL. The level of narration in doom eternal reach here the sublime levels of repercussion of evil.

 

To make a example, to me looks like doom 2016 was what Tom hall would have envisioned for doom, doom eternal sounds like Romero took over shouting "I'm gonna make you my bitch" (not that I hate Romero, he's a cool guy). 

 

Doom 2016 wasn't for sure the masterpiece of narration, but was telling the story in a way more elegant way.

My two cents on the "arcade" thing: yes, Doom is a game. It's unashamed of this fact. That goes back to 1993. However, Eternal has a different aesthetic than the 2016 iteration, and it's designed more as a fun OTT arcade experience than the more dark and foreboding and horror-ish 2016 entry (or the originals). Even the 1994 Doom II still had a pretty dark and sinister vibe despite the increased amounts of enemies. Doom has always had a bit of a tongue-in-cheek nature, but it's never gone as far as Serious Sam or Duke Nukem or even Blood. The dark humor is kind of along the edges.

 

Personally, I preferred the 2016 vibe, but I understand that id made a purposeful decision here and some people like this new OTT style. For me, I think Eternal and *especially* The Ancient Gods just took it too far. I don't need Doom to be Red Dead Redemption II, and I like the glory kills, but I preferred the vibe and art/production design of Doom 2016 to Eternal. The Ancient Gods just doubled down on the new direction they took Eternal, and I think it's too much. Think of it like food: I like a little bit of salt, but you can also oversalt your meal and ruin it. Doom Eternal is just TOO much, I'd like them to scale back and really work on level design and pacing. Doom 2016 did a better job of creating believable environments that don't just have floating towers and green things you need to shoot while jumping from platform to platform. The arenas were better connected in an organic way. Everything felt like a more lived in environment, even though it was still very much a "game".

 

Just my two cents, but I can see that I'm not alone in these thoughts.

 I feel that the DLC improved on the Doom game in almost every way.  It does have some faults but some of which is likely due to WFM.

 

1.  Lack of new demons:  For the most part we only get the Blood Maykr and the new invisible whiplash variant.  THe current cast is great but i want more surprises and demons to kill!  THere really should be more variants of the same monsters too keep things fresh and new.  With WFM making animations time consuming and/or impossible, this would of been a way to give us more interesting battles and fights.  Even bring back some the 2016 monsters would of been great!

2.  The Spirits are not a new demon but more of a ambient obstacle and I feel are kinda redundant with buff totems already in the game.  I would of rather had the summoner honestly.

3.  Story feels like it keeps retconning with every chapter.  I fear it could go full Highlander by the end of DLC2.  Where are the different Dark Lords?  What about demon royalty and the Arch-Demons?

4.  Empowered demons are more of a free loot pinata instead of a challenge.  They are also fixed among the demon spawning points.  It would of been many times better to make them their own spawn for dynamic immersion.  If that AI really did kill a player, I would also like to see ranks among them with their own skins to reflect there power.  Imagine a level 4-6 empowered demon hunting down slayers within different campaigns?

5.  Platforming:  I don't remember people asking for more platforming sections.  It wasn't that bad personally, but the stupid shipping crates felt buggy when trying to land on them.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Zemini

Reading all these spicy discussions about different negative or positive features of the game makes me wonder if people have acquired a taste for nitpicking or meticulous criticism. Which is actually quite good in a way.

 

Reading the fair and interesting points made me feel numb or dumb, a simpleton that loves all Doom deliveries and enjoys them to the fullest. Even Doom 3, which people like to bash as ''Not a good Doom game but a good FPS game'' for some reason. I'm actually quite happy about how the saga has been treated. We can't say there's a "bad Doom", just different flavours of Doom.

@Archvile Hunter

I don't know how you can read Doom64hunter's post, and not think the final battle is at least a little bullshit.  I haven't played the Ancient Gods part 1 but I can think of several instances in the main game that are pretty cruel so I don't feel like it's an unjust characterization.

On a broader note, I just want to say how much I appreciate this thread.  There's some really well thought out (and well articulated) criticism here, and I hope if there are any id employees lurking about, they'll either pass it along or take it to heart.  I can feel everyone's love for the series here, even if many of us are unsatisfied with the direction of the Ancient Gods and by extension, DOOM Eternal.

Also, @MattFright, you're definitely not alone in your love of DOOM 4 / 2016.  To me, it's kind of a miracle the game turned out to be as good it is.

Edit: @Zemini

I really hope the (multiple) dark lords mentioned in the Slayer's Testaments don't get explained away as having been the Hell Priests.  But then again, it seems like that's exactly what was done with Hayden and VEGA.

Edited October 25, 2020 by KainXavier

2 hours ago, Endless said:

Reading the fair and interesting points made me feel numb or dumb, a simpleton that loves all Doom deliveries and enjoys them to the fullest.

 

Hey, nothing wrong with that! In fact, The Ancient Gods is the first piece of official Doom content that has ever actually disappointed me. I liked Final Doom at the time (yes even the flawed and uneven TNT Evilution) and I thought Doom 3 was interesting and a good tech demo for the time. I didn't mind that it went the horror game route, even though I of course preferred the originals. I also liked Quake, Quake II and Quake III Arena at the time of their releases (never played 4). Quake III's biggest problem was that it wasn't as good as UT99. Quake 1 was mind-blowing for the time, though a bit too brown and drab.

 

59 minutes ago, KainXavier said:

On a broader note, I just want to say how much I appreciate this thread.  There's some really well thought out (and well articulated) criticism here, and I hope if there are any id employees lurking about, they'll either pass it along or take it to heart.  I can feel everyone's love for the series here, even if many of us are unsatisfied with the direction of the Ancient Gods and by extension, DOOM Eternal.

 

Yessir.

 

As a Deluxe owner, I'd happily pay an additional $15-20 for a third DLC that is made for Doom Eternal but returns to the general vibe and look of Doom 2016. I'd love to have some fully explorable levels with multiple paths rather than a string of arenas. Give me a secret exit and enemy infighting!

On 10/24/2020 at 7:54 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

exactly, devs force feeding information by taking control away, instead of giving players freedom to look at it at their own time is lazy.

It's not about being lazy, it's about being captivating, reading books is just boring for me lol. At least with cutscenes and scripted sequences I'll have something more interesting to look at.

On 10/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, Linguica said:

If the DLC was advertised as being like the "Master Levels" I would probably like it more - except Doom Eternal is already supposed to have a bunch of Master Levels, and that feature has been severely delayed if not quietly dropped. Also the need for an official id-made slaughter set is somewhat undercut by the work of PC modders who have invented stuff like the ersatz "Horde Mode" that has already been maxing out the insanity.

They mentioned in a livestream that the Master Levels were delayed for two main reasons:

 

1. COVID-19 limiting their efficiency, which made them decide to focus most of their attention on the DLC since it was paid content and has a "year one" timeframe attached to it 

 

2. They wanted to rethink how they approached Master Levels, adjusting things beyond enemy placement and adding challenges like classic mode, in which you start the level with only a shotgun and have to find the other weapons scattered about.

The next Master Level (Super Gore Nest) was supposed to release alongside the DLC but ended up being pushed back to December 1st.

 

On 10/22/2020 at 5:46 PM, Mr. Duk said:

Also... YES. Repetitive is the right word for a lot of The Ancient Gods. You're doing the same thing over and over. You fight two possessed demons in the final battle. Then you do it again! You fight an evil eye box. Then you do it again. Then you do it again with two of them. Just because Doom is about blasting demons doesn't mean it has to be the same thing over and over again. Knee-Deep in the Dead from 1993 basically had 5 enemies and one general look, and yet the smart level design constantly made it feel like you were doing new things. A lot of The Ancient Gods just feels lazy: here's an arena, we'll spawn waves of x2 or x4 of enemies, you fight them, then you move to the next arena, then there's an annoying platform section, then another arena, rinse and repeat. The end!

I'm going to be honest, I found DOOM 2016 way more repetitive than Eternal or its DLC, especially during the second half. Not only is the roster of demons smaller, but a lot of combat encounters feel very samey. I mean, how many times does the game just go, "and now you have to fight two more barons" at the end of a combat encounter. Eternal has more tricks up its sleeve, like the first buff in Super Gore Nest, or the Tyrant in a corridor on the UAC Atlantica Base, just to name a few. Don't get me wrong, I still really enjoy 2016 and totally see why others prefer it over Eternal, but I personally feel that Eternal handles its combat scenarios better.

 

Reading all these spicy discussions about different negative or positive features of the game makes me wonder if people have acquired a taste for nitpicking or meticulous criticism. Which is actually quite good in a way.

 

Reading the fair and interesting points made me feel numb or dumb, a simpleton that loves all Doom deliveries and enjoys them to the fullest. Even Doom 3, which people like to bash as ''Not a good Doom game but a good FPS game'' for some reason. I'm actually quite happy about how the saga has been treated. We can't say there's a "bad Doom", just different flavours of Doom.

Personally, I'm the same way. I enjoy every Doom game, from the classics, to 3 and its expansions, to the newer games, including the Ancient Gods. However, it's nice to see people offer constructive criticism, especially when the team at Id encourages it as it helps them improve upon the franchise. I'm glad that Mr. Duk started such an insightful thread, especially since I've seen so many people just mindlessly hate/praise the newer games.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Hunting4r2d2

2 hours ago, sluggard said:

It's not about being lazy, it's about being captivating, reading books is just boring for me lol. At least with cutscenes and scripted sequences I'll have something more interesting to look at.

Again I don't agree, taking control and force feeding me information for an extended period of time without my control is not captivating in the slightest.

When I played the Doom 2016 demo, I found that the combat in the first level was lacking; after you get into the Mars section the only thing remotely good about the gameplay was the glory kill, everything else felt mediocre. This made me decide that I would play its sequel instead.

 

Doom Eternal in comparison improves a lot on that; the Hell On Earth level at least has you doing much more than just glory killing, enough to make the player interested in more missions.

So, basically...
 

 

On 10/24/2020 at 2:54 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

 

exactly, devs force feeding information by taking control away, instead of giving players freedom to look at it at their own time is lazy.

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree, For me Cutscenes are the laziest way you give information to players. instead of having the player look into it, with books and text and audio devices. you just play a video and your done... A VIDEO You cant control, in an interactive medium, thats lazy.

I agree to disagree, it's not that big of a deal and I respect and understand your opinion. I'm not the kind of person that thinks someone is stupid because I don't agree with them (unless they are stupid, which happens). But one last thought from me: in the end, a cutscene takes more time and effort to produce than a text log, and a text log is just as interactive as a cutscene. You are still stopping gameplay to feed information. Everyone is using the excuse "if you don't like the text logs don't read them" so I'm going to use the excuse "if you don't like the cutscenes skip them". Just implement the cutscenes in a way that doesn't kill the flow. I'd rather have a skippable cutscene at the beginning and end of a map rather than having to stop a dozen times per map to read a bunch of text. The text is a problem because it leaves you with two options:

 

Become immersed in the story by breaking the flow of gameplay to read text logs

 

or

 

Enjoy the gameplay uninterrupted but miss out on the story by skipping the text logs

 

Therefore, they are not a perfect or elegant solution. An elegant solution would find a way to tell a story without requiring the player to interrupt gameplay. Especially in a game like Doom. Hell, even replacing the text logs with video logs would be more immersive, if they want to stick to the floating logs idea. Anyone can write a bunch of text, I'm doing it right now. Creating a cutscene requires talent and time and budget, but it pays off in the end because it creates a more immersive and coherent way of conveying a plot. Like I said, just implement the cutscenes in a way that doesn't make them intrusive. One at the beginning and end of each map would work fine.

Edited October 25, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan