JAMAL JONES TRILOGY - Old development thread - [Doomkid's 20 Years Mapping Contest]

1 hour ago, Cammy said:

 It's especially great to see so many newer creators stepping up to cut their teeth on this project - you could almost convince me this thing was secretly NOVA 4!

I hope I'm eligible to join that when it comes around. Those are some great wads.

And yeah, this has been really fun, Doomkid. Expect my submission in the next few days!

2 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

The first MtPain reference I actually get, but literally everyone on the planet as probably seen that movie once at least. I had no idea what "the neighborhood dogs told me to turn my music off" in his breakdown of Icarus Map 25" was, or what the hell where he took 'skull children' from in the last Patreon video he uploaded, since googling the phrase got me nowhere.

Just so you know, I made the dog joke because the MIDI in Ic MAP 25 reaches a nearly-inaudible high pitch, which I lamely related to dogs' hearing ability. Regarding "skull children," see below (2:24):

42 minutes ago, MtPain27 said:

snip

Congrats for making me feel stupid I guess. But seriously, it's not your fault. Honestly, most references tend to fly over my head if they are too subtle, and those...really weren't. Just so this isn't derailed further, I think that's all that needs to be said.

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

 

@MtPain27 and @Origamyde , I see an error that messes solely with vanilla/chocolate Doom that is common to both of your maps: Monsters are "stuck" in 0-height traps that are meant to open up. In 90% of source ports this doesn't matter, but monsters can only be in sectors taller than they are in vanilla Doom, or else the monster and sector itself get "glued" together on the Z-axis, preventing the sector from moving at all.

Thanks for telling me this, Doomkid. I'll be working on a version with modified traps to prevent this issue in the future. 

I have now fixed my map with another new version. It should no longer trigger any more bugs related to collision and height.

hmmm

question - what does "run-down techbase" entail? does that include things like waste processing centers, or just standard dilapidated techbases?

21 hours ago, Doomkid said:

That is really strange.. For me, when I use 1manV2.wad as a resource in Doom Builder, the SLADRIP textures all are present

Aha! I was stuck at using the `OneMan.wad`... I must have missed that there was an update to the resource pack.

Thanks for the great support @Doomkid!

11 hours ago, roadworx said:

what does "run-down techbase" entail? does that include things like waste processing centers, or just standard dilapidated techbases?

Either of these examples would be A-OK in my book (although for what it's worth, waste processing centers do make the best "base in ruin" type maps, imo... Blame the Mucus Flow!)

Also @Glikkzy, just wanted to mention that I played your map and found no bugs at all. I had a great time with it too, well done!

On 1/10/2022 at 12:48 AM, Doomkid said:

Will update the pack soon to have both this and (most likely) the Baron texture added in!

Awww yeah. :D

@Doomkid Do you play with OPL or SDL midi?

90% of the time, I play with SDL midi, game. (Usually using the typical Windows soundfont, the "toy" version of the SC-55). I do sometimes switch to OPL just for the heck of it though, I have an affinity for that sound from the DOS era

Is the wad designed for software rendering only or hardware rendering too?

2 minutes ago, Rycuz said:

Is the wad designed for software rendering only or hardware rendering too?

I'm going to say since it's designed for DOS, it will be software rendering.

Either/or - There should hopefully be no issues caused by playing in OGL, but most of the testing will be done in software mode.

On 1/12/2022 at 4:09 AM, LadyMistDragon said:

Congrats for making me feel stupid I guess. But seriously, it's not your fault. Honestly, most references tend to fly over my head if they are too subtle, and those...really weren't. Just so this isn't derailed further, I think that's all that needs to be said.

welcome to my world ;-)

OT: Lot's of cool content so far. It wont be easy for Doomkid to declare a winner.

@Doomkid Glad to hear that the map works and that you had a good time with it!

I have a small question regarding music. I have chosen this funky, bouncing video game tune for my map because that is usually my jam. But then I got thinking and curious if there is a certain musical aesthetic that the maps in the compilation should ideally adhere to, or if it is completely up to the map maker?

@Origamyde I also wanted to ask here, do I need to do anything special to make your map run in Chocolate Doom/Vanilla? I have visual errors immediately upon loading the map, and it crashes not very far in because of visplanes every time I try (see gif in spoilers)

 

1 hour ago, Glikkzy said:

 

@Origamyde I also wanted to ask here, do I need to do anything special to make your map run in Chocolate Doom/Vanilla? I have visual errors immediately upon loading the map, and it crashes not very far in because of visplanes every time I try (see gif in spoilers)

 

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Seeing the red areas in the editor indicates visplane overflows. I believe in vanilla doom, being in those areas of the map will crash the game. When there are more than 128 unique floor and ceiling surfaces (visplanes) in view, the game will crash. I believe this is because vanilla doom uses static arrays to store this data. 

As for the visual errors you're seeing, that appears to be a result of a drawseg overflows. If there are more than 256 segs or (linedefs, single-sided count as 1 seg and double-sided count as 2, ... i think) in view, any more segs with be rendered as HOM, usually the furthers ones from the player. I believe this is largely for the same reason; static arrays are used to store that data.

I've ran into both of these limitations when working on my map. Unfortunately, I've had to cut down on detail or otherwise obfuscate some of the visplanes or segs from certain viewing perspectives that a players may have when running around the map. 

There are other vanilla limitations to consider like the maximum number of segs a map can have which is 32768. This limit is much harder to hit however and usually isn't an issue. But of the higher limits, this is usually the first to be exceeded.
 

Oh, I know what causes the errors. But thank you regardless for the explanation. I was specifically interested about the map itself and how to run it in Chocolate Doom, since, as far as I can read, neither Doomkid nor Origamyde have mentioned these visual errors and crashes when running the map in Chocolate Doom. Hence why I asked if there might be something I am not getting about running the map in Chocolate Doom.

6 minutes ago, Glikkzy said:

Oh, I know what causes the errors. But thank you regardless for the explanation. I was specifically interested about the map itself and how to run it in Chocolate Doom, since, as far as I can read, neither Doomkid nor Origamyde have mentioned these visual errors and crashes when running the map in Chocolate Doom. Hence why I asked if there might be something I am not getting about running the map in Chocolate Doom.

Ah, thank you for the clarification! That's a good question, I'm not sure either.

I finally, got my map up and D_runnin.

After like a week of working, I got to finish my submission: "Future Hometown"

Music used: I don't know how to make a MIDI, or music in general for that matter, so I simply just used a midified "Sheep Will Sleep (If You Become Fatigued)" from Guilty Gear Isuka.

Sky texture's from the original Rowdy Rudy's Revenge cause I thought it would fit well with the map itself, shame I can't get to keep it if it happens to enter the megawad by the end of the contest, if it somehow gets accepted. Cause I don't think I'll win anything and honestly, I really don't care since I joined this contest for fun, not really for the prizes.

Here's some very bad story for this map, if you want to read it:

And finally, some screenshots and the .wad itself:

https://wadhosting.com/Wad/FF79C99B111D358B5826968BB993A13C605FF940

Please let me know of any issues with the map, I haven't added difficulty settings yet because I'm tired of working on this map, I will add them later though.

yo Doomkid, quick question. do i HAVE to write a story for my map? because i'm not really a good story writer, and most of the time the plot for my maps are just "doomguy and demons are there, kill and cure destruction"

I don't think you need to, I did cause I kinda wanted to "explain" why my map looks the way it does and what's in it.

1 hour ago, Glikkzy said:

I also wanted to ask here, do I need to do anything special to make your map run in Chocolate Doom/Vanilla? I have visual errors immediately upon loading the map, and it crashes not very far in because of visplanes every time I try (see gif in spoilers)

Hey there, Glikkzy !

Unfortunately, I do not know how much I can do to fix those issues regarding Chocolate Doom/Vanilla. Your best bet would be to use forks like RUDE, or switch to engines like PRBoom+ / Crispy Doom. I'll modify my post to specify the problems encountered by you and other people potentially, and stop recommanding Chocolate Doom for now until I can make sure it works properly.

Sorry for the inconvenience 😔

4 minutes ago, Vladguy said:

yo Doomkid, quick question. do i HAVE to write a story for my map? because i'm not really a good story writer, and most of the time the plot for my maps are just "doomguy and demons are there, kill and cure destruction"

I'm thinking of using something like this as a story for my map: "Jamal kills demons. Here's a bunch of demons; Jamal will be busy."

Ahhhh damn, I didn’t even to think to check for VPOs and such on Origamyde’s map - soon as I was aware of the bug where the enemies caused the sectors to be “stuck”, I looked into that issue, and then I guess I just put blinders on to any other issues (unintentionally of course). I’m glad you looked into this, Glikkzy.
 

Origamyde, I’ll leave it up to you if you want to vanillify this map fully, so that it doesn’t crash as I’m going through and playing them all on judgement day. Based on the red splotches in Glikkzy’s video, it’s pretty darn close and only needs some minor simplification to be full vanilla.

Even if you don’t do that, the final product is looking to be at least two megawads of maps (if I actually get submissions from everyone who has expressed interest) so your map is guaranteed to be in the project when all is said and done, so no worries at all on that front. But of course, you have the chance to vanillify it before that time if you please.

Vladguy, a story isn’t crucial, it’s more like sprinkles on the ice cream. The effort will count for something, and if it’s Shakespeare-level genius I’ll factor that into my final score, but a lack of story for the map is by no means a “red mark” or anything like that.

8 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Vladguy, a story isn’t crucial, it’s more like sprinkles on the ice cream. The effort will count for something, and if it’s Shakespeare-level genius I’ll factor that into my final score, but a lack of story for the map is by no means a “red mark” or anything like that.

Alright, thanks for letting me know. I'll maybe think up something, who knows.

2 hours ago, LGmaire said:

After like a week of working, I got to finish my submission: "Future Hometown"

Not sure why, but trying to run your map in Chocolate Doom freezes and crashes the port after a second or two without any error displayed. Runs just fine in Crispy Doom and GZDoom for me, so I am not sure if there is some vanilla limit that is it being hit here (UDB shows visplanes as within limits in the starting area, so that is probably ruled out. As a side note however, a spot in this area as shown in the picture is reaching some limits by the looks of it)

2 hours ago, Glikkzy said:

Not sure why, but trying to run your map in Chocolate Doom freezes and crashes the port after a second or two without any error displayed. Runs just fine in Crispy Doom and GZDoom for me, so I am not sure if there is some vanilla limit that is it being hit here (UDB shows visplanes as within limits in the starting area, so that is probably ruled out. As a side note however, a spot in this area as shown in the picture is reaching some limits by the looks of it)

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Huh I did not notice this even in the Visplane Explorer, I'll go ahead and fix it.

I managed to fix those issues at the cost of the arena being a bit more closed in, but I have no idea why Chocolate Doom crashes when loading up the map, I haven't been able to test my map in that sourceport because of this problem, and I don't know what causes it. So Sadly this map may not be Vanilla Compatible because of my limited knowledge of the sourceport or similiar souceports like Choco Doom for that matter.

It appears that even after some extra tinkering of my map (courtesy of @Dusty_Rhodes), the level of detailing and amount of sectors/linedefs makes it impossible to be played in Chocolate / Vanilla Doom without crashes and other issues.

I apologize for this inconvenience, and will promptly add a disclaimer about it. Even though I'm glad my map isn't completely unplayable, it's a shame it's not suitable for your typical OG Doom experience :(

3 hours ago, LGmaire said:

I finally, got my map up and D_runnin.

After like a week of working, I got to finish my submission: "Future Hometown"

My compliments to the chef. Incredible map! @Doomkid, I'd strongly recommend saving this one for a blind playthrough when 'judgment day' comes.