The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

Doom 64 wad review is out

wow i thought this was going to be a halloween episode

I was a bit apprehensive about a D64 review as it's the first DOOM game I (genuinely) played and also the first one I completed (on N64 and all...), but I didn't take issue with this one at all. Opinions and grades felt sufficiently justified. The only part I kinda/sorta disagree with is that I enjoy the techbase levels a whole lot more than Mr. Pain seemed to do, however I tend to enjoy techbase a bit too indiscriminately in general so that seems to be mostly down to difference in taste. Also I find D64 to be much more enjoyable without the Unmaker and I never used it very much because how hard it trivializes everything, so my experience has been quite different.

To this day I still think Doom 64 has some of the best atmosphere I've ever seen in a horror game. Yes, some people might not consider it "true horror", but it's soundtrack and dark style surely makes it out to be, and I'm sure many people can agree with that.

I still do not agree with people saying the Doom franchise was always supposed to be horror, but Doom 64 nailed the balance of Doom 1 and 2's action with Doom 3's horror quite well. In fact back in the day I've previously called it the "true Doom 3".

Yep, @Immorpher will be showing up with a torch and pitchfork...and so will...no, I kid. I've played some D64 custom maps but only largely desire to play some of the megawads like beta 64, etc. I do think MtPain was overly harsh though.

Just now, LadyMistDragon said:

Yep, @Immorpher will be showing up with a torch and pitchfork...and so will...no, I kid. I've played some D64 custom maps but only largely desire to play some of the megawads like beta 64, etc

Haha! Ya this came across my radar a few times today. I realize though we all grew up with different gaming influences, learned different gaming strategies, and want different things in gaming. It aint a gaming monoculture. So I can understand how Doom 64 isn't for a lot of people. I mean if I like it, knowing I aint a normal person, it can't be appealing for most people! ;) ;)

While he might have been a bit too harsh, I do agree that Doom64 does have some issues that Doom 2 doesn't. The aesthetics and level design, while nice and atmospheric, do make the maps look samey and less memorable. I have played through the game 2 times and still many of the map blend together. That coupled with the overuse of hell knights and barons (seriously, why didn't the bring revenants instead of barons) make me bored much more quickly than Doom 2.

3 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

While he might have been a bit too harsh, I do agree that Doom64 does have some issues that Doom 2 doesn't. The aesthetics and level design, while nice and atmospheric, do make the maps look samey and less memorable. I have played through the game 2 times and still many of the map blend together. That coupled with the overuse of hell knights and barons (seriously, why didn't the bring revenants instead of barons) make me bored much more quickly than Doom 2.

Cart space limitations. The Baron doesn't actually have its own sprites, the game just applies a different palette to the Hell Knight's sprites.

Part of me laughed at The Spiral being one of his best rated maps of the WAD. The map is just a staircase!

I could understand not being a fan of the action that Doom 64 offers as it's a much slower game than Doom and Doom 2, but I feel that rating the whole level pack down because it's not as fast paced is kinda missing the point. It'd be like me dismissing all of Doom 2 because the levels looked boxy and ugly.

I grant that Doom 64's campaign suffers a bit from lack of variety, but I'll still take it over Doom and Doom 2 any day. What it lacks in variety, it makes up for its overall consistency and quality. The only real dud of the game would be Unholy Temple because of how much backtracking is necessary to beat it and that would be it for me in the bad levels department.

Seems like he would have a much better time playing pistol start. Sacrificing that rule was a bad idea, especially  somebody as invested in gameplay challenge as he is. 

When he first gave its grade my initial reaction was "wow, that's really low, but combat has always been his focus so that's to be expected." But I thought about it for a second and realized that basically the only comment he consistently heaped praise on the atmosphere and scripted sequences, so I find it hard to say he was being unfair. He just has different preferences and priorities. That said, I think it would have been wise to say as much outright in the review. Were it me, I would give the final grade and then follow it up with something to the effect of "it's really good at what it's trying to do, but it's just not for me and my grading system isn't built for this style of wad."

I didn't like it at all.  Without playing it how it was designed, on an N64, you cannot appreciate the pacing of the levels.  It is one thing to traverse each level slowly on a N64 game controller than zipping around on a mouse and keyboard at 60fps.

Pretty much in agreement with Mt Pain here. I played to about map10 or so on the switch version around when it came out and was not very impressed. Just found the levels to be really bland. I feel the atmosphere would have been a lot stronger if the monsters and everything were new to me, but being pretty familiar with Doom's combat the pretty standard monster placement wasn't really able to scare me or anything.

9 hours ago, Gibbon said:

I didn't like it at all.  Without playing it how it was designed, on an N64, you cannot appreciate the pacing of the levels.  It is one thing to traverse each level slowly on a N64 game controller than zipping around on a mouse and keyboard at 60fps.

The new port is solid, so much so that I prefer to play it on my Xbox for the controller feel than on my PC. I disagree a little bit but I definitely get what you're saying.

It definitely was an okay watch even though i pretty much disagree with the final summary and scores.

Not every encounter needs to be Plutonia or hard to be good or not "boring", Not even adding the fact this was played in a way not indented, mouse and keyboard.

I don't think he's entirely wrong about the levels being a bit too rote. I mean the main comparison I'd make with Doom 2 is, Doom 2 has a handful of poor levels worse than anything in Doom 64 (aside from Hectic but that's an easter egg secret so whatever) but Doom 2's strong levels are better than anything in Doom 64, and I really like some of Doom 2's maps.

I think however ignoring Doom 64's atmosphere and tone when grading is the wrong thing to do. That'd be like reviewing System Shock today and ignoring that game's presentation, it would be just kind of wrong to do that. Especially coming from someone who defends a lot of TNT Evilution (with credibility I do feel) using that aspect. 

On 6/1/2022 at 10:28 AM, PsychEyeball said:

It'd be like me dismissing all of Doom 2 because the levels looked boxy and ugly.

I mean, that's pretty much how I remember his Doom 2 review going. . . 

interesting thought, that most of the levels i really loved in Doom 2 fail in comparison to maps to maps i loved in Doom 64. so Wasn't too sure about the Doom 2 having "better highs" when you have maps like In the Void, Unholy Temple and Watch your step compared to like Inmost Dens and maybe The Living End (which comes the closest)

17 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

most of the encounters in Doom 64 arent too different from some Doom 1 or 2 encounters, minus the revenants and archviles but those get a free pass.

You have actually seen his Doom and Doom 2 reviews right? You do realize that they got middling scores as well?

Since the other thread still hasn't been unlocked, I figured it was worth reviving this thread to continue discussing our favourite WAD review series from our favourite talking Mountain of Pain. It's another Sawed-Off WADs episode, which I for one really appreciate. There's so many smaller WADs that deserve a look by the Dean and I hope to see further installments over time. Check it out, guys!

Sidebar: Congratulations to @kwc for having your awesome Old Bean Factory map featured, fam. ;^)

I watch that today and i feel like Mt. Pain had PTSD from swimming with whales lol

This was a great episode (one of my favorite). 

I've sometimes disagreed with the Memorable Maps engagement in episodes because it seems to miss the "historical importance" / "what people thought/felt about the map when it was fresh / then some years afterwards" angle (which was a necessary part of it being a celebration of Doom's history that fits in with 25 years of Doom). It's true that some maps haven't held up to 2020+ perspectives but focusing on that would have made it less a celebration of landmarks and what people loved and more a "hidden gems that have aged well + good modern maps" thing (more skewed towards the latter), which is a neat idea too, but just a different thing.

Everyone can very easily replace many maps with what they found more memorable or liked better, but that goes for anything. For example sometimes people say that Misri Halek is too high at #1, but idk what possibly makes sense over it and that would top how it shined in 2001-2009 (and I can say that even though I don't really love the map). (I don't think Mucus Flow goes over it.) This isn't really a thing about "objectivity," which doesn't exist; it's more that "collective historical subjectivity" has to be factored in rather than it being pure "personal subjectivity." (And a few of the ones I disagree with ironically are better maps but that weren't really all-that when they came out.)

I hope Man on the Moon got in there partly because of the Moonwad club, because if so, I have...suggestions.  

Also this can be the thread because I don't want to have to read every post or feel it's "my" thread.

well,

7 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

Also this can be the thread because I don't want to have to read every post or feel it's "my" thread.

We'll just have to hope there's no more silly arguments about control schemes then ;P)

Was delighted to see a Paul977 map make it into one of these videos, I can only hope that he also looks at Black Room and Silver Edge in the future. (or Nova 3, perhaps?)

Congrats @Yugiboy85 for your A+ ! :)

Deus Vult is definitely not all that accessible if you're into the smoothed-out combat of Skillsaw, but I actually thought the red area was really cool and forces you to adjust your strategy. The cultural references may be a little outdated, but I think that's missing the point. This was made in a period before everything was patterned after ribbiks and skillsaw (to badly generalize) and you know, I think I almost prefer it in a way.  It is quite exhausting and maxing it may not be worth the effort, but I'm never going to go after a map for massive time investment when that's a conscious design choice. Not all difficult maps have to be set in voids with interesting geometry. 

Certainly don't want to sound like a dick but I think swtw map03 will receive a higher grade if MtPain27 played on HMP/HNTR.

he don't care is the thing because it's not the Dean of Doom way.

Can't really understand what you said but if I were there to play a map that is abosulutely beyond my skill level, I will definitely be mentally prepared to get destroyed. If UV is designed to be oppressive, and oppression is something that you don't like, then why bother? UV is not the only way to appreciate a map you know.

I think it's a case where the rules of the show — "We play on Ultra-Violence" — force it into a somewhat unfair judgment, as when the requirement for 100% kills results in harsh criticism for monsters or large battles hidden in secrets, even though it's actually good to reward secret-hunters with more combat and puzzles, or for turret monsters perched in hard-to-hit spots, even though those can put some mild pressure on the player and force them to keep moving.

It would be interesting if MtPain played Magnolia, if only because the rules of the show would crash into Ribbiks's rules for the wad: To play on UV, he'd have to beat HMP first, and he would almost certainly have to explain this unique situation to the audience in a digression about difficulty settings.