The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

4 hours ago, Bobby "J said:

Calling maps long, that’s one fair (if you are going 100% I guess) thing. Calling maps pretentious, what are you smoking?

I think he means maps being self-indulgent and overly dickish I suppose. Like giving too much weight to its worth when it comes out as just another slog. 

3 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

I'd love to see him cover the trilogy of WADs in a compendium video similar to his 3Hours of Agony review.

 

I'd also love to see Zone 400 covered and a third Sawn-Off WADs episode. There's still so many smaller releases out there worthy of the Dean's grade.

Sawed off wads are for mapsets under 5 or 6 levels I think. 

If Zone 300 or 400 is gonna be reviewed, I'd put money on them being their own episode(s). 

8 hours ago, AD_79 said:

 I'm also not a fan of some of his weird comments regarding the authors' egos? Essentially calling Tarns pretentious for making MAP19 feels especially unneeded.

Getting a larger following usually means you can get more people to defend some hot/bad takes. Thus making it "okay" as "valid critiscm".

9 hours ago, AD_79 said:

I'm not sure I understand why, aside from his 100% completion requirement sapping the longer adventure maps of their magic. Maps like Dirty Water or Speedtraps thrive on the player losing themselves within, wandering around and uncovering things at their own pace without pressure to hunt down every last shred of content on offer (and in the case of the two named maps, the authors don't necessarily want you to do everything as you can reach the exit via more than one route). I know the show's format calls for it, but forcing oneself to fully complete these maps turns them into a potential self-inflicted chore.

I may be alone in this, but I think NOT fully completing these long adventurous levels is what saps them of their magic. Starting out lost and wandering aimlessly, slowly completing objectives and getting a feel for the layout and by the end you have tamed this wild beast, knowing every nook and cranny of what once seemed a inscrutable labyrinth. For me it's a very rewarding experience!

23 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

This silly idea that simplicity and straightforwardness automatically breed quality needs to go in the trash can. 

I don't think that's the point he was trying to go for, considering other very complex and detailed maps that have received high praise in other reviews... It's about the disparity of a grandiose presentation/ambitious design and the perceived actual quality of the thing in question. That perception obviously subjective, as you can go on the whole tangent of what "quality" is and if there's objectively good or bad standards, but if that's how it came across, it means just that, it's how it came across to that player in particular.
 

What i learned is i need to make sure my maps meet the dean of Doom check list and not on my mapping "ego" checklist (things i enjoy and want to make)

Well to me BTSX E1 was such a popular and accessible wad that it made it impossible to follow up. Its difficulty was right down the middle, map length was very consistent generally, it had bangin midis and it had a very streamlined experience for the player. It pleased the biggest part of the fanbase you can realistically please with a single set of maps. And the main criticism of it was that it was so consistent that many of the maps felt similar to play. So to try and make a good sequel you'd either rehash the formula and make 20 more balanced techbase maps (with a new coat of paint), or try and experiment a bit, go grander, make it more exploration heavy and cryptic. 

In essence, I can't fault the mappers for trying to go in a new direction with the sequel. Of course they wanted to make something that was new and different and they deserved that chance. It's just that going in any direction from what they had would result in disappointing people due to the immense expectations. Many people like 20 minute long, pretty looking, and mostly straightforward techbase maps. That subset of the community is a lot broader than those who like hour long, complicated and harder ones. E2 still had a share of shorter maps which also seemed to be the biggest crowd pleasers, so take that for what it's worth. I just think the mix of the two was a bit off, and a number of the different mappers seemed to submit their own long ones. 

As for the term pretentious, I think it was 100% targeted at the custom nodebuilder fuckery. It even breaks some source ports, and the fact he went into this point in detail is very telling that it rubbed him the wrong way. The Dean is far from impartial, he plays favorites with aesthetics he likes and sometimes gets petty about things. Personally I know by now that our taste in maps is not the same, although I still enjoy his content.

16 hours ago, Chalibluefin said:

Doomworld not gonna like this one 

Ohhh boy

I'm Doomworld, and I like it

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

As for the term pretentious, I think it was 100% targeted at the custom nodebuilder fuckery. It even breaks some source ports, and the fact he went into this point in detail is very telling that it rubbed him the wrong way. The Dean is far from impartial, he plays favorites with aesthetics he likes and sometimes gets petty about things. Personally I know by now that our taste in maps is not the same, although I still enjoy his content.

The map he called pretentious wasn’t even using node builder fuckery. One of the reasons he didn’t like it, the auto map not showing the secret area, is totally not intentional btw. 

I'm not particularly surprised by his impression of BTSX2 but I also disagree with a lot of it. I'm not sure where you draw the line between pretentious/self-indulgent and grandiose, but I think MtPain places this WAD on the wrong side of it. I echo the same sentiments many have already shared that the large environments you get lost in is part of the experience of this WAD. Not many WADs really capture the somber or melancholy vibe that BTSX1&2 do in my opinion, and I think that effect would be diminished if the maps were smaller in scale or shorter in length. I find it a bit telling that he kind of glosses over the hub maps when in opinion they really exist as the lynchpin of the WAD's overall theme and feel.

I also have to give consideration to the authors making their maps fit within the constraints of vanilla limits, which I know MtPain probably considers, but yet I feel don't get enough consideration in the review itself? I can only imagine authors leaning into the challenge of realizing their vision with such constraints in place...is trying to stick as close to that in their execution pretentious? Or self-indulgent? I'm not really sure, but personally I don't think so. 

Ultimately, it's weird that I disagree with a lot of the substance of the review, but I don't disagree with the grading. There are many WADS I like quite a bit more than BTSX2, but vastly more that I've played that I like less. 

9 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I hope so too. But it seems that the chances of it happening are quite low due to it not much known outside of Doomworld, despite winning a cacoward.

That's exactly why a review episode would be great. More people need to know about this set.

Let's make it happen, MtPain! 1000 Lines 3 when?

I think if he only played through some of the more tedious and large maps once, that he wouldn't necessarily judge them as harshly. There's "Shocker in Gloomtown" of course, but that map isn't as long as some of the later ones. As Baaul has said, this tendency is also evident in past reviews of his.

13 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

 

 

I'd also love to see Zone 400 covered and a third Sawn-Off WADs episode. There's still so many smaller releases out there worthy of the Dean's grade.

He's not really the biggest pcorf fan though, and honestly, it's got as much the bad as the good of the average Corfiatis set.

1 hour ago, Tarnsman said:

I do have trouble understanding giving a map that you "never want to play again" a grade higher than "F" and find his final grade a bit confusing given the actual words that preceed it.

Granted I am not MtPain27 and I also haven't played the 2nd half of BTSX E2's maps, but I can kind of understand this. If there's a map that does everything against my preferences, but has atleast some degree of competence and effort put into it, then I too would hesitate to give it an F.

Like in my case, Sunder's later maps are just tooooo goddamn long for my taste to a point where I probably won't ever play them even a single time, let alone "never want to play again". But I just can't ever bring myself to give those maps an F due to the sheer effort put by IG in those maps.

On the other hand, i do think using word like pretentious was probably a bit much.

:)

Just finished the episode. While I disagreed with a decent chunk of MtPain27's review I saw where he was coming from in some parts. Not liking something is perfectly fine, but calling somebody pretentious because of it doesn't sit well with me. Calling the map smug because you get a certain weapon before anything else is strange. Don't get me wrong, I can understand where MtPain27 is coming from when he talks about the lack of rad suits and the hidden plasma weapon secrets; I didn't even find the plasma weapon secrets during my run-through. I am also confused why he bothered to rank the intermission maps but not the final map. In MtPain27's E1 review, he gave the intermission maps an A, which I completely standby, but what I don't agree with is E2's intermission maps getting a C. MtPain27's reasoning for this was "The train stations felt organic and present, while the four towers in the fountain of sparks are just filler." This just feels extremely backward to me. I love E1's intermission maps with a hot burning passion, they are even my wallpaper for Pete's sake and I prefer them over E2. However, E2's intermissions felt nowhere close to being fillers. Each one felt like a new bonus area to explore and bask in the atmosphere. If E2's intermission maps are filler, then E1 is filler in the exact same way. Finally, that comment at the very end of the video about the mapper's ego feels like a cheap shot and probably should've been edited out of the video. If a map is big and you didn't like the map because of it, it doesn't mean the mapper has an oversized ego. That comment was quite shitty and wouldn't have been what I expected from reviews like these.

i've said this many, many times now: BTSX 2 is my favorite WAD of all time. it's (with a few obvious exceptions) perfect IMO. that said, i 100% understand not liking it. it's a fucking beast, man. not everyone enjoys hour long monoliths, or spirit crushingly hard fights. i get it.

btw, i'm also surprised MT. Pain's score was that high.

I wouldn't take any comments here personally. Not any more than people should take any words in your review personally. You had to expect some pitchforks being raised in response to your criticism of one of the most highly-rated megaWAD in recent memory. You made some strong points and now some people will react strongly to that. Like you said, it's a conversation. In the end, both sides have valid arguments for their positions. I think on a lot of points, especially when it comes to creative work of any form, people can often just agree to disagree.

I do think there is an objective answer to most questions, including art. But good luck getting everybody on board with that.

The question here would probably be, how much of this "reading into authorial intent" debacle was informed by the intentional obtuseness found in D2ISO?

I love the show. And this episode. I happen to like BTSXE2 quite a bit more than a B grade, but I did not play it to 100% kills and I see where the annoyance with many of these maps can come from. It doesn't make me like the episode or the show any less. And it is his show where he should feel free to spread his thoughts on a wad or hopes for the future of a project.

My advice is to keep going, don't sweat! There's way more awesomeness to cover.

Personally i just find off putting calling something made for Fun to have Fun as egotistical or pretentious, especially a project that started life as "wow Essel, these texture you made are awsome lets make some maps for these". celebrating your peers hard work and skill through creativity is far from egotistical. 

I don't see the problem. I love the first two Community Chest wads (like all of them but the first two are my pick of the litter) and he dunked on CC1 and got a base level of enjoyment out of CC2. It's his opinion, he's perfectly entitled to it. I'm not big on the BTSX wads myself but they are certainly very well made. When people make excellent content for my favorite game for free, I can just choose not to play what I don't like. And likewise, I can play all the wads I do like. And it's totally fair to praise and criticise the wads you play. Doom has a wide, wide range of content for people of all kinds of tastes. When you make a level, you open yourself up to criticism and praise in equal measure. People like my levels and people dislike my levels, I take all feedback with a grain of salt, knowing it's not personal, and move on. 

To paraphrase Bob Dylan:

"'Half of the wads can be part right all of the time and other wads can be all right part of the time. But all of the wads can't be all right all of the time.' I think Mordeth said that. 'I'll let you be in my speedmap project if you let me be in yours' I said that."

2 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

once I swallowed my pride and gave it a second listen/read with an open mind

Pretty much this. Excuse the redditism shudders but I think it's accurate. Granted Tarnsman, Essel, and Xaser and the like are far from inexperienced or "bad" mappers - very far. Again, I think it just boils down to what people want to feel and see when they digest art. It's no different to music. How many people love and defend Weezer compared to their detractors? I'm not a fan but their music isn't low effort or bad simply because I dislike it. 

Sorry for doubleposting, I think it deserved being said. 

Also I wish this thread would stop being a bed for controversy. What's it he says in the beginning of every video? "Disagreeing is part of the fun," that it?