The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

16 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

I really don't want this thread to get locked again.

I don't know how moderation here is handled but I don't think it should be locked unless things get miserably, irrecoverably out of hand. Better for everyone to air their grievances now than to have the conversation end abruptly with so much tension still hanging around. With everyone already conducting themselves so respectfully for the most part, this seems healthy even if not entirely productive.

I can’t wait for the next episode. Let bygones be bygones. Why let the opinion of one man over a fan made wad get you down?

1 minute ago, MarsHappyNation said:

I don't know how moderation here is handled but I don't think it should be locked unless things get miserably, irrecoverably out of hand. Better for everyone to air their grievances now than to have the conversation end abruptly with so much tension still hanging around. With everyone already conducting themselves so respectively for the most part, this seems healthy even if not entirely productive.

Yeah I do think it's not really that bad so far, which speaks volumes for how good the Doom community is.

1 hour ago, Dr. Zin said:

Everyone likes to hear a review rip into a bad map, until the reviewer takes a shot at something they like. Those of you saying Mt.Pain crossed a line calling Tarnsman's map pretentious have some pretty hypocritical piety when he's labelled Magikal a sadist for CC1 Map29's convoluted progression and Huy Pham a megalomaniac for Deus Vult's grandiosity (among others). Yep, we'll all cheer when Mt.Pain dunks on Hell Revealed 2 because the Doom Community has decided it's a "bad" map set, but god forbid he says something negative about BTSX because that megawad was put together by pillars of the community! Also, if Mt. Pain's language offends you then you sure as hell shouldn't watch Tarnsman's Twitch streams, because he can be just as caustic in his criticisms (if not more so). Admittedly, I haven't listened in a while and maybe he's mellowed out, but he certainly loved ripping on maps that were in his mind "subpar." Does this make him a bad person? No, and Mt.Pain isn't either, and their content would be dull, tedious and emotionless trash without injecting a little fun and personal opinions.

This explains exactly how I feel about this situation. What, are we making a huge stink because a highly-respected member of the community reviewed and heavily criticized a highly-respected megaWAD made by the community? It wasn't that way with Hell Revealed 2, Scythe 1, Deus Vult, and a few others.

    Granted, I don't quite know how I feel about MtPain's "ego" statements - perhaps they're a bit too assumptive and dunk on the mapper themselves too much, who knows. And I have never touched BTSX and I have no opinion on it, but I'm aware of how exhausting it can be to play, much less make an entire 30-minute review video on each and every map of E2. Perhaps MtPain's personal thoughts will change over time, like all of ours do, and y'all will be happy when he brings it up in the regrading at the end of the season.

But Pain has stated his utmost respect for the community, and will stand by his own opinions regarding something as innocuous as a fanmade Doom level, just like how each and every of us has ours - certain favorites that we hold deeply (me? Most of Ribbiks' works), and certain ones that we abhor or are just out of our comfort zone.

Point is: This conversation is going absolutely nowhere. As seems to be the case with opinions on Doomworld...

I don't necessarily want to take one side or the other here, because I believe that honestly over all these posts, people have said the points that are worth saying anyway. MtPain recognizes some areas he can improve, and the community also has recognized that he wasn't trying to be as nasty as others seem to think he was.

What I WILL say is that while I'm sure MtPain has learned from this, I hope that it doesn't make him diverge from his reviewing "style," for lack of a better word. I do like how he does break down both things that he likes and that he does not like - word choices aside, I very much hope that remains. A good review should be able to point out good and bad for better or for worse, and with his view that it's a conversation between player and mapper in mind, I can see how he has some of the views he does. The issue is that while that makes perfect sense in his mind, it comes across very differently when presented to others - and we're all guilty of things that make perfect sense to us but get a totally different, unintended reaction when presented to someone else.

In due time, I think things will turn out just fine - MtPain loves this community, the community loves him back, and it's clear that he wasn't intending to tear anyone down or single anyone out. He'll learn to choose his words a bit more carefully. But in the end I think that this is a learning experience for everyone involved, and that his reviews will come out all the better for it.

To be honest the only thing that raised eyebrows for me was the criticism of Map19, or in particular the unorthodox weapon pick up. The main reason being the whole digression regarding the pacing of the BTSX E1 maps that was made and then making critique of a map that doesn’t adhere to this. I don’t think it is artsy or pretentious to hand out a risky weapon and make the environment uncomfortable to play in. In fact give you are in the latter half of a wad that openly sites Alien Vendetta as an inspiration then this shouldn’t be a surprise.

As for Bee kingdom - If it doesn’t pull you in and engage you, then you are not going to have a good time with it. That is just one of those things when it comes to playing large non linear maps.

1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

I don't necessarily want to take one side or the other here, because I believe that honestly over all these posts, people have said the points that are worth saying anyway. MtPain recognizes some areas he can improve, and the community also has recognized that he wasn't trying to be as nasty as others seem to think he was.

 

What I WILL say is that while I'm sure MtPain has learned from this, I hope that it doesn't make him diverge from his reviewing "style," for lack of a better word. I do like how he does break down both things that he likes and that he does not like - word choices aside, I very much hope that remains. A good review should be able to point out good and bad for better or for worse, and with his view that it's a conversation between player and mapper in mind, I can see how he has some of the views he does. The issue is that while that makes perfect sense in his mind, it comes across very differently when presented to others - and we're all guilty of things that make perfect sense to us but get a totally different, unintended reaction when presented to someone else.

 

In due time, I think things will turn out just fine - MtPain loves this community, the community loves him back, and it's clear that he wasn't intending to tear anyone down or single anyone out. He'll learn to choose his words a bit more carefully. But in the end I think that this is a learning experience for everyone involved, and that his reviews will come out all the better for it.

I'd rather MtPain gave his actual views than alter them so they are more acceptable to one community or another.

I see him as a critic - like an art critic,  music critic or film critic. 

As a 'consumer', you want that critic's genuine, independent views, not views heavily influenced by anxieties about how they will be perceived by the creative community.

Ref: his point about his reviews having an element of a conversation with the map author, I feel it's the same thing as with other critics.

Imagine reading an author's books, or a director's films, and not having any thoughts about what they intended with certain choices or having any questions about why they made certain decisions.

I’ve just now started watching this guy while I’ve been playing ‘The Master Levels’.

He really is quite different. Very entertaining. 

7 hours ago, Doomkid said:

. I know how much effort wad building is, and as a wad builder, my inclination is to grade the effort and the grind moreso than actually grading the wad by “how much fun I had as a Doom player”.

Now this part I don't agree with. I'm sure it took a fair amount of time and energy to make Big Crappy Shit Megawad(yes, that is an actual mapset, and is just what it claims to be) even if not as much brainstorming as a serious work would have, but at the end of the day the final result is still essentially worthless as a gameplay experience. It's much like a study exam, there's no sense in pointing out that you spent six months cram reviewing if the work you delivered doesn't meet the required passing standards. Regardless of how hard you worked on it or didn't, you failed and that's all there is to that. There's nothing else to be done for it but either make an all new attempt or change paths.

Anyway, I agree with Cannonball that bigger and/or more complex levels are guaranteed to be more divisive, although MountPain27's taste and mine tend to diverge in that regard, see for example the Eviternity episode: Anagnorisis, which he said wad too exhausting to look back on, I would replay every day if I had nothing more important or interesting to do, while his pick for best level of the set, Dehydration, has bored me to actual sleep multiple times. 

In the case of BTSX E2, I tend enjoy the longer maps the most in part precisely because they stand out, and as such help less of the the WAD run together in my head, which is somewhat infamously E1's Achilles's hill, as much as I also like that one. It's still a problem in E2, but not as much thanks to the increased ambition. And I will say the Dean raised the exact same criticism towards E1, so at some point you've got to know what you want. Content is never going to strike the exact balance a specific player is looking for down to the millimeter, after all.

I will say, I agree with Dr.Zin that criticism can be as direct as it wants to be and that it can often be more interesting that way, and in some cases more productive that way. But I also agree with Tarnsman that trying to read into the level author's intentions is absurd, and that appraising the level on the basis of said intentions, real OR imagined, is missing the point.

But honestly, and I will admit this might just be my intuition misleading me, the general tone in MtPain's voice felt way more hostile than unsual in this episode, almost as if he recorded it while in a seriously bad mood. If that is in fact the case, then I think the video should have been postponed outright. I personally make a point never to take action while under the influence of strong negative feelings, because I realize that said feelings can never in turn be an excuse for the negative consequences those actions would have.

Sure, as I said in that post, looking more at effort than fun factor is something I have a hard time not doing and is the main reason I don’t do more reviews. They wouldn’t be that helpful to the average player. I’m glad MtPain considers effort, but ultimately only treats it as one piece of the pie - it’s more helpful to mappers and players alike than just saying “holy shit, that’s impressive, I respect the grind”. That’s an endorsement and is always nice to hear, but beyond feeling nice for a bit it’s not super helpful.

I’m also genuinely curious why trying to read into mapper intent is seemingly seen as a bad thing. I find it more or less impossible to observe/consume any piece of art without at least briefly considering the intention of the creator and firmly disagree that by doing so I’m “missing the point” of Doom maps altogether.
 

The point of Doom maps is to entertain the mapper and ostensibly to entertain other players, so if a map doesn’t do that for you (or heck, even if it does), it’s very natural to wonder or make assumptions what the mapper was thinking and what they intended. Now if I’m wrong about the intent and the creator wants to correct me, I’m all for that. I don’t think it would change my opinion on a map too much, but it would still be appreciated.

I guess ultimately the “point” of Doom maps is in the eye of the beholder. From that perspective it’s pretty much impossible to miss the point of them, since that in itself is different from person to person. For some people the point is to relax and blow off steam, for others it’s to challenge their own creative abilities, and for others still it’s to fuck with people for a cheap laugh (think most “joke” wads and terrywads). It’s subjective by nature.

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

ow if I’m wrong about the intent and the creator wants to correct me, I’m all for that. I don’t think it would change my opinion on a map too much, but it would still be appreciated.

 The problem being, even if neither the mapper nor anyone else corrects you, probability alone dictates that you're more than likely still wrong. As for an example why I say it's missing the point, let's say a map tries to be, let's say the most challenging map ever (swap with any other goal, in this case the specific intent isn't the point), but most of the people who decide to play it end up thinking it's a great map mostly because of the aesthetics and a couple encounter setups, while everything else is just okay or even filler. The resulting consensus then would be that the map in question is excellent, but NOT that it succeeds at what its author was trying to do. See the way MtPain himself summed up his opinion of Monster Condo for an actual example of such a reaction.

Now just to be clear, I do agree that there are limits to this mindset as well. I won't go into specifics here, but let's juts say, if someone were to misinterpret the authorial intent behind a work of literature, not simply as an organic reaction, but in order to deliberately spin the work in question against its own stated goals, I would never stand for that.

45 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I’m also genuinely curious why trying to read into mapper intent is seemingly seen as a bad thing. I find it more or less impossible to observe/consume any piece of art without at least briefly considering the intention of the creator and firmly disagree that by doing so I’m “missing the point” of Doom maps altogether.

In principle, there is nothing wrong with the whole "art as dialogue" bit, and trying to discern the intent (i.e design priorities / goals) of a map is downright essential for good criticism. However, getting into a huff and ascribing your subjective frustration to authorial egotism is ill-befitting of a high-profile critic, especially when said frustration is partially a result of one's own self-imposed restrictions (should have invoked the "except in cases when it's just not worth it" exception on a few ones here, me thinks).

Before anyone misses the point and responds with the whole "he's allowed to have his opinions, dude" bit, note that I only bring this up because of MtPain's response to Yugiboy's criticism on YT, as posted by the man himself earlier in this thread. Additionally, I have long taken umbrage with his tendency to (implicitly or otherwise) ascribe negative intent to mappers (several examples of which have been brought up in this thread already), and am only posting now because I thought he'd gotten over it by now.

I say the above as a fan of the show, mind you, and as someone who has yet to play BTSX E2. Personally, I very much doubt MtPain has any ill-intent towards the mappers or whatever; this little controversy strikes me more of an inevitable result of a systemic tendency to read too much into authorial intent, going beyond the critically-necessary discernment of design priorities / goals and into an implicit assessment of the author's character, which, while generally innocent, turns sour when compounded with frustration partially born of an adherence rigid set of rules that, by their nature, serve some maps better than others.

Ultimately, it is MtPain's prerogative to style his reviews as he pleases, and my complaints amount to little more than minor, subjective blemishes on what is otherwise a very well-produced and well-written show that knows what it wants to achieve and does so competently. Also, as a final note, his mapper-centric approach can also have very positive outcomes: by way of example, I can imagine that many newer Doomers (like myself) have put Darkwave's work on their playlists as a result of MtPain's presentation of him. Few reviwers so eloquently and emphatically voice their appreciation of the mappers themselves, and that's my favourite aspect of the show. That's why this sort of pettiness stands out to me, and why I find it bothersome.

8 hours ago, Snaxalotl said:

For real though I'm getting the vibe that wads by well known author's shouldn't receive criticism, if he said this about maps by less renowned authors then no one would have said anything. Plus there is a huge difference between criticizing a map and the author personally. This whole thing is so overblown.

Haven't watched the video, but I think calling a map/author pretentious is such a weird and specific criticism. Granted, I actually enjoyed BTSX, and he didn't (he's free not to, lots of people love Memento Mori while I think it's somewhat dull), but nothing about it struck me as pretentious. To me, a pretentious Doom level is something such as rootpain.wad, and if you've ever played or seen it, you would easily recognize it as such.

A level being large and time consuming isn't pretentious to me, and describing it that way feels hyperbolic in a mildly dumb way.

EDIT: Having now watched the video, it's alright. I disagree about the intermission maps being filler anymore than they were filler in E1, and he doesn't like maps which I thought were great, whatever, but the whole pretentious and ego thing is an awkward addition which I think isn't poignant or constructive.

As said before, you need to go out of your way to find odd stuff like rootpain.wad to see some actually pretentious Doom. I'm not exactly frothing at the mouth though, I don't consider it a big deal.

7 hours ago, TheLippyServer said:

I've only made a single map for release, and have already been referred to as 'sadistic' and 'mean'.

Sadistic can be a great compliment depending on the intent of your work and the tone of the person saying it. There's definitely levels I have played where the feeling I get is that the combat encounters were put together with a sadistic mindset, and which also made me go "Fuck yeah!" because of it. It can be really fun when a map is mean to the player.

I probably shouldn't post twice in this thread about the same topic, but this current topic has been kind of sitting with me during the day and I want to put some of my final thoughts in on it before I hit the hay.

I think a few people in the thread think that the majority of the criticism comes from people being upset that a map we liked got rated poorly and we are upset about it. While that may be the case for some, I don't intend to come off like that and just wanted to express my opinions and disagreements with the review. It's like what MtPain27 says at the start of each episode, "Disagreeing is part of the fun." I'm not pissed that MtPain27 gave a map I liked a C when I would've given it a B+ at minimum, that's just how subjectivity works. I understand that MtPain27 had a very different experience then I did when I played the WAD. I still enjoyed this episode, and I disagreed with a good majority of it. 

I don't think MtPain27 meant any serious harm with the jokes at the authors, especially when BTSX E2 originally came out 8 years ago when I was fucking 12 lol. However many people, me included, probably wouldn't feel to good having their art called pretentious. I think most people want their map to be played and either enjoyed or not enjoyed with criticism and suggestions, and not having a full reading into whether or not the author enjoys sniffing their own farts and how the thing they enjoyed putting time in for us to play is meant to showcase an overexaggerated ego or something equally as deep into the psyche.

I'll probably proof-read and edit this slightly tomorrow to clear up my point. Goodnight y'all, I'll see you when the next episode drops in a few weeks.

4 minutes ago, ZeMystic said:

I probably shouldn't post twice in this thread about the same topic, but this current topic has been kind of sitting with me during the day and I want to put some of my final thoughts in on it before I hit the hay.

 

I think a few people in the thread think that the majority of the criticism comes from people being upset that a map we liked got rated poorly and we are upset about it. While that may be the case for some, I don't intend to come off like that and just wanted to express my opinions and disagreements with the review. It's like what MtPain27 says at the start of each episode, "Disagreeing is part of the fun." I'm not pissed that MtPain27 gave a map I liked a C when I would've given it a B+ at minimum, that's just how subjectivity works. I understand that MtPain27 had a very different experience then I did when I played the WAD. I still enjoyed this episode, and I disagreed with a good majority of it. 

 

I don't think MtPain27 meant any serious harm with the jokes at the authors, especially when BTSX E2 originally came out 8 years ago when I was fucking 12 lol. However many people, me included, probably wouldn't feel to good having their art called pretentious. I think most people want their map to be played and either enjoyed or not enjoyed with criticism and suggestions, and not having a full reading into whether or not the author enjoys sniffing their own farts and how the thing they enjoyed putting time in for us to play is meant to showcase an overexaggerated ego or something equally as deep into the psyche.

Essentially my opinion.

These long form video reviews cause so much trouble :))))))))) imagine how little this'd hit if it was an essay posted on a blog and you didn't have to hear it all enunciated for impact? the presentation can kinda suspend your awareness that you're listening to a critic

9 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Every single Doom wad out there was made for fun's sake

Doomkid hit the nail on the head with this one, I feel. The comments on the most recent DoD episode in this thread have really reminded me of the comments sections of music websites in which the staff reveal their end-of-year list or post a review that goes strongly against a specific group's opinions. Just because the evaluator's philosophy of enjoyment does not align with yours, because -spoiler alert- the whole concept of fun is entirely subjective, it should never trigger any butthurt or lessen your love of the object of the review. Enjoy what you enjoy and don't let anyone tell you that fun is X, not Y. All mappers condition their creations to their own tastes one way or another, which by default inaugurates a division of opinions around their body of work.

I have nothing of substance to say

Doom Forum debating is fun, looking forward to the next episode.

8 hours ago, Decay said:

Not true. There are definitely times where mapper egos get in the way and they fuck up maps or make shitty game play because they either don't listen to others' feedback, don't care to, or just generally think they are infallible. This has even been alluded to in the cacowards.

 

I have no stake in this argument though. I've not played BTSX, and I'm not saying this is a valid case here, but sometimes it is totally a valid criticism, though usually more so when you are more familiar with the mapper themselves.

This in particular.

I've experienced a few times where I feel like I've played maps that felt like "design for the sake of design" because the map ARTIST really wanted to indulge in creating "the best map cacoaward winner 2015". Said maps usually run less than suboptimal on the average doom player's computer. In one instance I've seen projects get derailed because an author refused to take criticism or make changes to their gargantuan maps so that they'll run better. Instead, opting to pull out of the project entirely and leaving the rest of the project to dry and fill the holes. That's how we were gifted Slaughter Spectrum.

That being said I most certainly think the later half of BTSX ep2 isn't NEARLY as an offender in that sense but there were several moments where I'm running through maps and I felt the act of design really overtook the focus off of gameplay. With mini magna opera strung together in what really plays as an exhausting drive between the nearest city and the next gas stop. At the time of playing before the Dean's video ever was a concept, I thought to myself "A big sense of pride and self indulgence really reeks is prevalent in these maps," or some semblance of over-saturation in design than the actual gameplay itself. After seeing MtPain27's video on the wad I saw that I wasn't the only who sensed the same issues and saw the maps for what they appear to be. It is not a bad thing to be prideful in your craft and wanting to put out the best product you can for your namesake but it feels like map authors took that concept in an ordeal to sort of out do one another and string together large, exhausting maps that don't necessarily play as fun gripping maps, but slogs that are held together by architectural beauty and showcased by the map maker's ability to make maps altogether. I'd say the word "pretentious" is quite accurate in this sense when playing said map set, you don't feel like you're having fun at your own pace but having fun at THEIR pace. You can say that the large amount of freedom and adventure is "giving the player a chance to explore as he so chooses" but eventually that magic just wears out and the player would rather move on then see the same architectural masterpiece over and over. While it's no salt slicked jab at the author's themselves, I would feel the minds behind the magic ought to take the thoughts into consideration.  

I am in no position to tell map makers who have been mapping and creating doom content a lot longer than I have how they should make their maps.
They know tricks of the trade and every single factor that come's into making the magic happen. There have been great wads made by these same people being put under the microscope in this review. However, at what point would you consider that you've spent more time making the maps than playing Doom itself? If not in the literal sense but metaphorical? People like Mt. Pain I feel don't go into a map assuming the worst in terms of design but the overall experience you have will leave you some sort of imprint from the map maker. I've heard this dreaded saying everywhere I go but it works perfectly here: PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

On a side note, the ending in particular to this wad always rubbed me the wrong way. I describe it as having post nut clarity with a hooker. The rising action until the climax is overstimulated and exciting. However, at the end she takes the 200 dollars and leaves you, feeling absolutely nothing. 

43 minutes ago, Chalibluefin said:

PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

On a side note, the ending in particular to this wad always rubbed me the wrong way. I describe it as having post nut clarity with a hooker. The rising action until the climax is overstimulated and exciting. However, at the end she takes the 200 dollars and leaves you, feeling absolutely nothing. 

To the above: a demonstrably false statement. Counter-example one: our perceptive organs feed us the physical world in 3D form, meanwhile formal observations show us that its true nature is at the very least 4D if not even more complex. So in that instance, we know perception is a lie. Counterexample two: our entire collective intellect cannot find a way to reconcile astrophysics with quantum mechanics without generating irreducible contradictions in logic, yet we know for a fact that all three disciplines yield true information. Reality is reality, irrespective of whether us human beings have the capacity for understanding its true nature, or whether we don't.

To the below: do keep in mind that it's not supposed to be any kind dramatic big deal ending, lest we forget the development cycle of the BTSX trilogy was supposed to be over much quicker than it turned out, even to the point of potentially being all a single release.

Wow, reading all this "controversy" makes me really want to replay BTSX Ep2 again: everything that was criticized ("magnum opus syndrom", "pretentiousness", maps that don't care if the player doesn't find every percentage of content) points to the maps being right up my alley. :)

I've played BTSX Ep2 before, but it's been some time.

1 hour ago, Chalibluefin said:

In one instance I've seen projects get derailed because an author refused to take criticism or make changes to their gargantuan maps so that they'll run better. Instead, opting to pull out of the project entirely and leaving the rest of the project to dry and fill the holes. That's how we were gifted Slaughter Spectrum.

I don’t claim to know what went on behind the scenes of that particular project, but I don’t see anything wrong with rehoming maps out of a specific project to a standalone release, if the mapper believes that they would be better placed that way. I can think of two fairly recent examples where that happened in Ar Luminae and The Hate Flow, two well regarded maps where the decision to make them standalone benefited both the map itself and the original project.

10 minutes ago, Nirvana said:

I thought grading things was supposed to be fun :'(

ranking things is fun; get thee to a saltmine.

On 9/4/2022 at 12:58 AM, Chalibluefin said:

Doomworld not gonna like this one 

Ohhh boy

This ended up being prophetic, all told.

18 hours ago, Use said:

:)

But I think this is still the best response in the thread. :P

16 minutes ago, Nirvana said:

I thought grading things was supposed to be fun :'(

Dunno, to be honest I always found it an exercise in futility, within and without Doom. 

33 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

 

Dunno, to be honest I always found it an exercise in futility, within and without Doom. 

Yeah, ranking and grading things always seems like such a futile undertaking. You can try to say a lot of interesting things about a wad even in just a few sentences but a grade will always feel kind of meaningless to me. A qualitative approach always seems to be more fruitful to me compared to a more quantitative approach when you're trying to articulate the experiences you had with something, especially media. Everytime I watch or read a review - be it music, a movie or a doom wad - everything the reviewer actually says and expresses in language, tone and so on is so much more substantial: but the rating at the end adds nothing.

Listening to what a reviewer has to say about the qualities of a work can be interesting and can help me see a work in a new light, but ranking things to me is never fun, neither when I consume the ranking or nor when I have to do it myself.

That was a fun watch for me! A lot of the maps were still stuck in my mind, which is a great thing, IMO. I'll disagree hard with the finale as it was a really memorable map and while the final fight is a bit weird, it worked for me.

Also, I didn't mind much the large maps, but then I wasn't looking for 100% so I could always "skip" the less interesting sections and not look for the secrets. I felt this episode was a nice expansion, being more ambitious while also being more balanced than BSTX1. I honestly thought I was not going to enjoy it because of the many complaints against Arch-Ville abusage and big maps, but I actually thought everything worked really well and the main setpieces were more varied this time.

I'm not sure what to think about calling some of the maps "pretentious". On one hand this is definitely a good thing as there are elements from the map that stands out from the set. In another hand, these elements might be too distracting I guess, but from what I remember of BTSX I didn't have much trouble with anything like that. I always thought of BTSX as pretentious as fuck, tbh, and it's one of the reasons why it works so well? (especially the second episode for me)

There are always going to be things people will not enjoy and players can be really sensitive with some elements, such as non-linearity (finding your way), regular arch-ville usage, size of the maps, etc, but then I don't think you can do much as a mapper except trying to pace the best you can through the maplist.