Doom Community Iceberg (Entry Suggestions Needed)

10 minutes ago, Lizardcommando said:

I wonder where all of the cartoony/MSPaint Doom mods would go on this Doom Iceberg?

 

At this point in time, I feel like there's enough content to actually talk about it. Aside from the obvious ones like Adventures of Square and Neutronian Chaos, there's also Lizard Squad, MSPaint Doom, Final Fantasy Doom and technically Action Doom (weren't the majority of the sprites for that mod made in MSPaint?)

Toon Doom is definitely cartoony but idk how obscure it is. Angelic Aviary wasn't made in paint but it is very cartoony as well

batman doom and simpsons doom are both very well known ms paint mods also

Oh yeah, Batman Doom and Simpsons Doom are good ones. I definitely remember playing Simpsons Doom quite a bit during my early days of downloading Doom wads. I totally forgot about Toon Doom. Thanks for reminding me of that one.

Bugger it, I came up with more at work:

• Little Doomlings Still Exist (a wild community controversy)
• Pinky Speed Bug (makes demons too fast or too slow)
• Doom 64 Pyramid (An unknown cut map from Doom 64)
• Doom 64's Beta (a late-ish build leaked recently, interesting unseen art inside, I have a copy of it)
• RVNH 3CT1 CD3M 0??? (Shows the player how to access EDIT: COMPLETE Hectic in Doom 64, see special passwords section for info)
• BFG2704 (early and different version of the BFG)
• The sky never changes (Doom 2 bug)
• unfinished Bruiser jumpscare (never implemented but originally planned, read development section)
• Doom 3 Alpha (a few differences, like zombies never actually dying)
• The Doom 3 marine speaks, only once, at the Cyberdemon intro he quietly utters "God", I think you can actually hear him say it in BFG Edition but you have to deafen yourself by upping the volume to hear it. I cannot find anything that confirms or denies my claim so take it with a grain of salt.
• The Doom 3 pentagram references old Dooms
• The monster summoning sound in Doom 3 is actually a part of the Lord's Prayer (reversed)
• A tree prophesises events in new Doom (See secret prophesies section, a tree whispers future events to you)
• Doom 64's lost Breakdown secret (see trivia section, thanks to the recent leak it has finally been found)
• DANNY WON!
• Bee in a coke can (That's how this track was made)
• PSX/N64 Archvile sounds (Aubrey Hodges, the audio man behind the 2 ports, released the unused sounds)
• Doom Eternal has a sewer gator in it

They are a lot less "Community" focused, more core Doom than anything.

I made a bunch of "blogposts" about Doom, some about the community like "current status" and "things that would not exist without fans"

At least some stuff here could be used as reference (and reseached better than i did), if it helps.

What about the Plutonia creators being sons of the "Love is..." creator?

But i still think of how the Doomslayer has interesting ties to fans that isn't just the comic book, like 4chan/urban dictionary texts and Death Battle.

On 1/1/2023 at 12:53 PM, Mr Masker said:

Yeah, I guess it is sorta subjective, Although I don't really know how you'd gauge obscurity for stuff like this. One persons layer 4 topic is another person's layer 1.

A bunch of surveys on 5 social media platforms. Problem is getting it to target audience, especially layer 1 target, which would require survey advertising, and thus, money.

@skript_kitty then you may need to adjust for current time. I've been here a year, and before that I did not know anything in layer 1, except decino, doomworld and nuts.wad. source code was only known word due to every gaming youtuber using it at some point in their career. Oh, amd pet the cacodemon got me intrested in doom again. First video of clippys i watched, ironicly, after a video about microsoft clippy.

Oh, and biodegradable is mentioned in few of the videos I've watched, including SOG.

Gzdoom may be exception here, considering the engine is used by other games on steam(read it somewhere on doomworld).

Right now, i'm maybe still at the gate 1 year in, but I'd move the following to entryway. i know of  dsda, slade, whacked, but i've only heard of sunder and valiant, tried going down and sunlust, both still above my skill level. 

Everything else haven't gotten a clue, except heard of deus vault.

It's a fun little project, but you may need a couple of freeform surveys in well known doom communities to establish a baseline for layers 2 and below, and maybe find something unexpected results in layer 1

It's just too perplexing for me to organize. Half the stuff in tiers 1 and 2 are pretty much equally well known (or at least it seems that way to me), but it's subjective so a lot of it is hard for me to place. I feel like it would be easier to consolidate a lot of entries and make them fit under different umbrella terms. Instead of doing an iceberg based on obscurity, could you just have each part of the iceberg represent a different subject?

Example:

Tier 1 - DOOM/idtech games

Tier 2- Source ports

Tier 3 - Wads

Tier 4 - Oddities/easter eggs/glitches

Tier 5 - Trivia

Tier 6 - Community drama

Etc.

I actually think that would produce a more educational iceberg while being easier to organize, add to, and maintain. Just a thought!

2 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

It's just too perplexing for me to organize. Half the stuff in tiers 1 and 2 are pretty much equally well known (or at least it seems that way to me), but it's subjective so a lot of it is hard for me to place. I feel like it would be easier to consolidate a lot of entries and make them fit under different umbrella terms. Instead of doing an iceberg based on obscurity, could you just have each part of the iceberg represent a different subject?

 

Example:

 

Tier 1 - DOOM/idtech games

Tier 2- Source ports

Tier 3 - Wads

Tier 4 - Oddities/easter eggs/glitches

Tier 5 - Trivia

Tier 6 - Community drama

Etc.

 

I actually think that would produce a more educational iceberg while being easier to organize, add to, and maintain. Just a thought!

Disagree, as I feel it defeats the purpose. The DOOM Wiki already categorizes everything in this regard. It is difficult to place entries, but that's the point of an iceberg.

Somewhere in either tier 2 or tier 3, "Doomscript".

And maybe somewhere near the bottom, "Fragglescript"?

I think I have some ideas:

Some of the lost WADs that the community knows about would fit the in the later tiers. Like Lethe, by Dr. Sleep, the last map in the Inferno series. Sadly, Dr. Sleep passed away before he could finish the level, but there were some screenshots shared around, so it did exist at least in some form of beta.

Also the original Alien Vindicta, which was the first version of the all mighty and powerful Alien Vendetta. The WAD exists, and it includes both primitive versions of the final release, as well as various originals that never saw the light of day.

The old website of WADs in Progress is also worth mentioning. I'm pretty sure at least half of the WADs posted there were never released, and there's a lot.

The various unused gore sprites that Romero released some years ago. Pretty creepy, and I'm pretty sure they would have given Doom an even rougher reputation back in the 90s if the game had been released with this much gore.

I'm curious as to what would qualify for the very last tier? Like, really creepy stuff? Some creepypasta? Real events? I think the most polemic thing that Doom has been associated with was the Columbine shooting, I don't think anything else tops it.

5 minutes ago, Endless said:

I'm curious as to what would qualify for the very last tier? Like, really creepy stuff? Some creepypasta? Real events? I think the most polemic thing that Doom has been associated with was the Columbine shooting, I don't think anything else tops it.

apparently this iceberg is rated by "obscurity", so i dont think columbine would end up in the bottom, most people now that eric harris and columbine had some relation to doom. i hope it isnt just "spooky" creepypastas in the bottom, that'd just ruin this whole iceberg for me.

also your other ideas are great!

13 minutes ago, Z50 said:

eric harris and columbine.

The connection to Doom is something I think you'd have to have been alive during the events to really understand. It's not something that was this huge secret, the insinuation that Doom and other games were part of the cause of the violence was in the mainstream media and touted by politicians at the time. Since it was really the only shooting of its kind at the time, and was already the target of a moral panic over things like the satanic imagery and nazi symbols, there was a lot of criticism. Of course today there have been too many mass shootings over the last 20 years and none have been credibly linked to the Doom community in the same way. I don't think any have caused the same kind of reaction as Columbine did at the time and so I don't think it's still talked about that much.

Basically I think if you're a boomer and were old enough to watch the news at the time, it was never obscure knowledge. However someone learning about the events today might find Doom not to be mentioned much, little more than a footnote since it's been discredited as a contributing factor. So placing this on the iceberg is really a matter of opinion and perspective. I also think actually playing his maps would be far deeper on the iceberg than simply knowing they exist, since most of the community agrees it's in poor taste to do so.

5 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

It's just too perplexing for me to organize. Half the stuff in tiers 1 and 2 are pretty much equally well known (or at least it seems that way to me), but it's subjective so a lot of it is hard for me to place. I feel like it would be easier to consolidate a lot of entries and make them fit under different umbrella terms. Instead of doing an iceberg based on obscurity, could you just have each part of the iceberg represent a different subject?

 

Example:

 

Tier 1 - DOOM/idtech games

Tier 2- Source ports

Tier 3 - Wads

Tier 4 - Oddities/easter eggs/glitches

Tier 5 - Trivia

Tier 6 - Community drama

Etc.

 

I actually think that would produce a more educational iceberg while being easier to organize, add to, and maintain. Just a thought!

1. I apologize for my absence from this thread

and 2. I quite like this idea and format for icebergs, I've given it some thought and while I'd like to sort each tier based on a specific concept or idea, I also like the idea of having it all organized based on obscurity. The fun of iceberg charts to me is the obscurity, especially about topics I'm passionate about and quite enjoy, such as Doom. At the end of the day, an iceberg chart isn't really educational, it's a rabbit hole of trivia and facts.

I do think some entries maybe do need to be consolidated together, this is why, for example, I added "games built on GZDoom" instead of listing out individual games like Hedon, Total Chaos, etc.

17 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

 

Basically I think if you're a boomer and were old enough to watch the news at the time, it was never obscure knowledge. However someone learning about the events today might find Doom not to be mentioned much, little more than a footnote since it's been discredited as a contributing factor. So placing this on the iceberg is really a matter of opinion and perspective. I also think actually playing his maps would be far deeper on the iceberg than simply knowing they exist, since most of the community agrees it's in poor taste to do so.

i understand where you're coming from. but honestly, iceberg charts just depend on the opinions of the authors, and where this chart will be posted on the internet. if this iceberg chart is to be posted here, on Doomworld, i think that columbine's relation to doom is not really obscure in that sense, since most of the people on this forum know this. if the chart is to be posted on some other social media, i think that columbine and/or eric harris' maps should be lower on the scale, since most people that are relatively new to doom (or that don't even play it) don't really know about it. 

Time for some more iceberg patch notes!

-Removed most of the entries related to Eric Harris, the only one that remains is one clarifying that he did not make a map of Columbine.

-Added various source ports to the iceberg

-Added source port drama too, particularly what @Doomkid mentioned (big thanks btw, I actually had no clue about a lot of this until your post in this thread ^^)

-Added an entry for the Doom Alpha and the Doom 2 Beta

-Added "ultra obscure doom source ports" as the first Tier-8 entry, whoohoo 

7 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

Doomlings Still Exist (a wild community controversy)

Oh man that was a hilarious read. I thought it sounded weird. I also had no clue @Gez was a Francophone. What a weirdo for posting maps like that. I laughed out loud when Tarnsman just went off of on the guy. This is a bit Doom community history I wasn't familiar with, but the sleuthing was impressive. 

On dimanche 1 janvier 2023 at 6:03 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

Unknown unused Doom 3 enemy

It's actually known, used, in ROE, and not an enemy. It's the mesh used for the Invulnerability Hunter's forcefield effect.

On dimanche 1 janvier 2023 at 9:58 PM, skript_kitty said:

-Changed the Jeremy Corbyn entry to "Margaret Thatcher" with a link to the wikipedia page for Thatcher's Techbase 

WTF Doomworld was deleted from Wikipedia due to being non-notable according to them but a shitpost jokewad gets a page.

57 minutes ago, skript_kitty said:

Time for some more iceberg patch notes!

-Removed most of the entries related to Eric Harris, the only one that remains is one clarifying that he did not make a map of Columbine.

  Reveal hidden contents

To clarify why this decision was made: DoomKid pointed out that it was a bit heavy and dark for an iceberg about the Doom community, and I agree. Going forward I'm going to try and avoid mentions of Harris and Columbine due to 1. Oversaturation, and 2. How heavy the subject is. I hope you all understand my reasoning.

-Added various source ports to the iceberg

-Added source port drama too, particularly what @Doomkid mentioned (big thanks btw, I actually had no clue about a lot of this until your post in this thread ^^)

-Added an entry for the Doom Alpha and the Doom 2 Beta

-Added "ultra obscure doom source ports" as the first Tier-8 entry, whoohoo 

Err quick addendum, without giving away potentially private information, it was requested of me to remove a certain drama entry due to a potentially "explosive" outcome.

I saw no reason not to comply, so here we are lol.

18 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Don't forget about The Bloodite Krypto Scandal and the resulting copypasta! Tier 2 or 3.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, the Arachnotron turns into ham when it dies! And, as @Savarin pointed out, the backpack is a dog! 

 

here's all the proof you guys need

My suggested community iceberg would be unreleased or abandoned ZDoom (and GZDoom) projects.

Here is one project I could think of that I remember see in development from my internet childhood.

Doom X - an ambitious 32 map project being developed by Pierre Ramirez (going by the name Melvin Flynt) between 2006 up until the mid-2010s which was to be an updated version of an obscure PWAD he made called The Last Marine, which was included in at least two PC Gamer magazine coverdisks, one being the Issue 21 Coverdisk and the other being the Issue 21 Coverdisk of the Italian edition of PC Gamer. The ZDoom version was to feature new enemies based on those from Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Doom 3 and even the Quake series, and later in its development there would've been new weapons as well. The project was probably abandoned by 2016-17, probably due to the discontinuation of ZDoom by Randy Heit or the author not wanting to extend the time or resources to transfer DECORATE code to ZScript. If you try to go to the official website list on its Mod DB page, it now redirects you to a phishing site. The last known official media released for Doom X of any kind was this video showcasing the Garg enemies.

Unless Melvin Flynt has any interest in reviving the project, we only have a couple of enemies released in one form or another, with the Flesh Wizard and Loper enemies on the Realm667 beastiary, the Angel of Death being an enemy in ZDCP2, the Succubus and Trite enemies being released on the aforementioned Mod DB page and the infamous Gangsta Grosse being widely available for many years, though the latter addon PWAD was essentially a proof of concept test map for a boss fight than anything else.

Sucks that it was never released officially and the only prototype we got of Doom X is basically an unfinished vanilla PWAD version under the title "The Last Marine".

I could think of other unreleased or abandoned ZDoom (and even GZDoom) projects, but I wanted to start off with one that I was aware of in my childhood.

You know what could be perfect for the very bottom of this iceberg? "Post Hell"!

I mean - what's more obscure than a section of DoomWorld that nobody (with the exception of admins and maybe a select few moderators) is allowed to enter in the first place?

1 hour ago, Gez said:

It's actually known, used, in ROE, and not an enemy. It's the mesh used for the Invulnerability Hunter's forcefield effect.

Interesting, I never knew that.

There's always something new to learn.

I really like that your restraining this iceberg to the Doom fan community rather than Doom as a whole, the history of Doom's development and the stuff released by id can easily fill up it's own iceberg

I'm actually iffy on Hacx's inclusion in this, since it was a game that had to get the doom license before it went open source (albiet mere months before it went open source, youch) I kinda consider it a bit more official. but in it's current state I guess it's a fan project again

Some oldies from the community:

- Linguica stole hissy
- impse
- Pink Fish
- RALPHIS HAS HAXORED THIS PAGE
- The Picard Song\Rutabaga Salad
- Heh.

- Repercussions of Evil

- Doom RPG for BREW
- Llama
- NEDM
- Skulltag drama

"The arbitrary code exploit" from the ACE Engine also deserves a spot imo

quick update on the iceberg:

-Added ZDoom and Graf Zahl entries (no idea how I forgot these at first)

-Added a Lilith.pk3 entry

-Finally got around to adding the International Doom League

-Added the Adventures of Massmouth

-Added Dwango

-Added Dario Casali's WAD Playthroughs

-Added RENReguard

-And Added Aliens TC

apologies for the somewhat slow updates, im doing this inbetween all of my other hobbies heh

just a reminder you can submit entries directly to the iceberg at the bottom of this page:

https://icebergcharts.com/i/Doom_Community

What about including ONEMANDOOM, the guy before MtPain27 who wrote blog post reviews of doom wads? Worth a shot. 
 

Uhh, I’m not sure if it’s too appropriate to add, but wasn’t there some supposed sourceport drama that could be included like what happened behind Skulltag and Zandronum? Ik there’s a video on YouTube that covers a very early multiplayer port called CSDoom that had some internal drama in it, too.

And for one tiny little thing that stretches things out a bit: the late rapper MF DOOM sampled some sfx from PSX/DOOM 64 in a couple of songs he made, examples being like That’s That or Pennyroyal (altough the sfx show up just when the beat of pennyroyal is over :P, you can still hear it in the rap Joey Bada$$ made over it).

30 minutes ago, VoanHead said:

What about including ONEMANDOOM, the guy before MtPain27 who wrote blog post reviews of doom wads? Worth a shot. 
 

Uhh, I’m not sure if it’s too appropriate to add, but wasn’t there some supposed sourceport drama that could be included like what happened behind Skulltag and Zandronum? Ik there’s a video on YouTube that covers a very early multiplayer port called CSDoom that had some internal drama in it, too.

There's actually so much old drama, but I really think it's best left in the past, but ultimately it's up to others whether or not that old garbage should be included. The Skulltag site and Zandronum site are both still alive and still have some related snippets on them if someone did care to dig into it.

As far as older reviewers though: OneManDoom and for that matter, Doom Underground and Doom Reviews for the Recreational User ought to be added. These guys were all some of the most trusted pre-DoomTube-reviews sources for good wad info, of course alongside the NewStuff reviews that used to be a monthly feature on DW.

11 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

There's actually so much old drama, but I really think it's best left in the past, but ultimately it's up to others whether or not that old garbage should be included. The Skulltag site and Zandronum site are both still alive and still have some related snippets on them if someone did care to dig into it.

 

As far as older reviewers though: OneManDoom and for that matter, Doom Underground and Doom Reviews for the Recreational User ought to be added. These guys were all some of the most trusted pre-DoomTube-reviews sources for good wad info, of course alongside the NewStuff reviews that used to be a monthly feature on DW.

If you want some really deep and obscure reviews, there's also the Maximum Death for Heretic shovelware, which, in a very pro gamer move, includes a large list with ratings and reviews for all the WAD files included in the disc, something very rare for shovelware, and I think it is the only example of an included ''review guide'' in the disc.

Adding some of the lesser known shovelware compilations is also worthy for some of the later tiers.

Also, does anyone happen to have a back-up of the Satan.wad file from the Doom = Human Body Allegory thread? Both the original 4shared and re-uploaded Sendspace links are dead. I know it's a less-than-stellar gameplay-only mod, but I want to see it just for shits and giggles.

4 hours ago, VoanHead said:

And for one tiny little thing that stretches things out a bit: the late rapper MF DOOM sampled some sfx from PSX/DOOM 64 in a couple of songs he made, examples being like That’s That or Pennyroyal (altough the sfx show up just when the beat of pennyroyal is over :P, you can still hear it in the rap Joey Bada$$ made over it).

Also, "Where boys fear to tread" from Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness by The Smashing Pumpkins, samples the explosion from Doom. It's in the liner notes.

Surface level (?): Maximum Doom and the Shovelware CD-ROMS market