The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

1 minute ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Zoomer is a mentality, not an age. I'm a 27 year old boomer, for example :)

Well, regardless I enjoy the action elements of Doom more than wandering around mazes. If the combat is repetitive or boring, I don't enjoy it. If people enjoy 90s stuff that's fine, but I find it incredibly tedious and dull.

6 minutes ago, Akagi666 said:

Well, regardless I enjoy the action elements of Doom more than wandering around mazes. If the combat is repetitive or boring, I don't enjoy it. If people enjoy 90s stuff that's fine, but I find it incredibly tedious and dull.

As someone who likes all the dooms (modern, slaughter, old, mazey, switch hunts, etc.) I find the quibbling between which style is "good" and "bad" to be silly. There's enough here for everyone to enjoy themselves and conversations where it turns into an Art War get me goin'. That said, the old stuff is foundational, and without it, none of us would be sitting here right now. 

Comparing gameplay of classic wads against modern only makes sense when judging maps with similar style, goals and focus. Maps built primarily around combat are naturally going to be ahead of maps which favor atmoshpere, exploration, worldbuilding, puzzles, etc..

Majority of 90's wads had a different balance of these elements, often emphasising primarily worldbuilding and atmosphere, creating unique places to explore, and modern maps with similar focus aren't that much different in terms of gameplay. Sure, there are some improvents, but apart from couple of unpopular tropes (excess of which in 90's wads is often overexaggerated anyway), there isn't much to improve.

Action in the classic wads is for the most part completely fine and when it isn't, it's easy to look past anyway, since it isn't the main focus. I don't mind if a map has a boring hallway fight, when I have an interesting places to explore.

Combat is only one element of level design. People like the classics, not because their gameplay is a non-stop kinetic action extravaganza experience of pure distilled skill or whatever, but because there are other things to enjoy in Doom, and these wads do them well. 

As an example of how art is subjective, my feelings on Requiem have always been pretty middling, but I sure as hell enjoy playing it more than Plutonia, which I've never enjoyed in my entire life.

They're both good, though. My personal gut reactions don't determine what's worthwhile and what isn't.

2 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

skill issue, my friend. good and bad gameplay doesnt really exist

 

So, in your view, all doom maps are exactly equal in how good their gameplay is?

1 minute ago, Ravendesk said:

So, in your view, all doom maps are exactly equal in how good their gameplay is?

i think art being subjective, yea. I love most things people commonly call bad :)

5 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

i think art being subjective, yea. I love most things people commonly call bad :)

Well, that's not an answer. From your subjective point of view are all maps equal or some are still more enjoyable than others? What about movies, do you think they are all equally good?

15 minutes ago, Ravendesk said:

Well, that's not an answer. From your subjective point of view are all maps equal or some are still more enjoyable than others? What about movies, do you think they are all equally good?

i have my own biases but those are separate from reality. what i like and what others like arent the same and dont have to be. Of course I have my preferences 

2 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

skill issue, my friend. good and bad gameplay doesnt really exist. (especially in the context of requiem which kicks ass and has excellent gameplay and awesome level design). 

And if I don't like a map because it is too easy or grindy (forces me to do easy repetitive tasks for a long time) - is that a skill issue too?

Also, the POV I'm gathering from your posts seems contradictory to me. You say that art is subjective - but if it is, shouldn't everyone have the right to express their opinions and provide explanations for them (instead of just shutting up and "gitting gud")? I'm personally interested in hearing different evaluations of art from people that want to get different things out of it. For example, I don't enjoy the overwhelming majority of slaughtermaps because I think they're unnecessarily repetitive and drawn out, but I understand that many people enjoy that kind of gameplay and that these kinds of maps still have artistic value. However, the problem with saying that "everything is subjective and everything is above criticism" is that then we cannot have any discussion about art at all.

10 minutes ago, Plut said:

And if I don't like a map because it is too easy or grindy (forces me to do easy repetitive tasks for a long time) - is that a skill issue too?

Also, the POV I'm gathering from your posts seems contradictory to me. You say that art is subjective - but if it is, shouldn't everyone have the right to express their opinions and provide explanations for them (instead of just shutting up and "gitting gud")? I'm personally interested in hearing different evaluations of art from people that want to get different things out of it. For example, I don't enjoy the overwhelming majority of slaughtermaps because I think they're unnecessarily repetitive and drawn out, but I understand that many people enjoy that kind of gameplay and that these kinds of maps still have artistic value. However, the problem with saying that "everything is subjective and everything is above criticism" is that then we cannot have any discussion about art at all.

yes, if you dont have the wherewithal to finish something, by definition it is a skill issue. Skill doesnt mean "ability to dodge projectiles" exclusively, but a confluence of factors like endurance, memory, recall, ability to quickly learn something (eg, layout). Not having the required skills to do something doesnt mean you're "worse" or anything, it just means either it wasnt designed for your sensibilities or you're not compatible at the moment, and thats a reason I shelve a lot of maps and come back years later and love them. We are never in a constant state and can always change our opinions with time. 

edit: to expand on this, look at role playing games and skill trees. Just because your lockpick skill isn't high enough to open the door doesnt mean you suck at the game, it just means you're better off sneaking passed the guards instead. I don't use the word skill in the way most people do, maybe, to me the word has a lot of depth. Another example, my skill at doing quick and snappy movements is higher in the morning than it is at the evening, so I'll play certain kinds of maps at different times of day based on my mood and reaction times. 

I don't think there's any contradictions. People making sweeping claims like "90s wads are bad" is an attempt at making their criticism objective. My point is that we all have unique sensibilities and interpretations and it's all subjective. I'm not sure where the disconnect happened or what isn't clear about it. Discussion is fine, that's why I popped in, to balance the discussion.

1 minute ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Skill doesnt mean "ability to dodge projectiles" exclusively, but a confluence of factors like memory, recall, ability to quickly learn something (eg, layout).

Why is "not getting bored with doing the same stupid shit" not included?

2 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Not having the required skills to do something doesnt mean you're "worse" or anything, it just means either it wasnt designed for your sensibilities or you're not compatible at the moment, and thats a reason I shelve a lot of maps and come back years later and love them.

Does everyone have to eventually "learn to love" everything and if they fail to do it - they're wrong somehow? Also, this sentence implies that every piece of art ever made is perfectly realized to satisfy the author's intentions, which is definitely not true. For example, lots of my old maps rely on lots of cheap pop-up / teleport traps not because that was the most perfect way to get the kind of experience I wanted, I just wanted to make fun hardcore gameplay and that was the best I could do at the moment (boring, repetitive and unfair though it was).

All right... I had expressed my own reservations regarding certain parts of the video, but I and others still tried to remain on topic, either discussing the video itself which is still praiseworthy and interesting, or at least discussing the WADs in question, but for several pages now the conversation has derailed in ways I didn't even think possible. As a result, I'd say it's time for a time-out, because there's been too many sweeping generalizations, too many off topic posts that are better discussed in a thread in Everything Else if at all, and also a few flamewars here and there for good measure. I really hope this will not become a trend every time a new episode is released, because there's much to discuss about the WADs or about the reviews, but this is simply not it.

I just hope this time around people will actually behave themselves.

I'm always happy to see a Dean of Doom video and this time was no different.

I really hope to see MtPain writing the Cacowards one day*, he has good taste, and a spectacular way to express his opinions.

* - starting this year, please and thanks.

Apparently there was a Machete (by A2Rob) episode.  Neat.

6 minutes ago, onetruepurple said:

I'm always happy to see a Dean of Doom video and this time was no different.

 

I really hope to see MtPain writing the Cacowards one day*, he has good taste, and a spectacular way to express his opinions.

 

* - starting this year, please and thanks.

Well Looking through this thread I'm sure that wont cause any issues whatsoever xD

1 hour ago, VoanHead said:

I just hope this time around people will actually behave themselves.

I hope so as well, i hate it when this has to be put under lockdown because of off topic trash

I love his Halloween specials, i was really excited because it seems every year on halloween his sawed off wads get more and more corrupted from i guess this year it was an eldritch horror that ate the computer lol. 

But it's good to see this thread opened again and we can talk about how wonderful the maps are, after watching this i need to play what lies beneath by Violent beetle. 

And for most of us Happy Halloween everyone!

I did not expect Maskim Xul to be on today's episode, really! (Is that how you spell it?)

As always, Delinquent does some trolling. Demon carnage ensues. Great stuff.

Whoa, a texture I made was in this episode! I’m #DoomFamous now!

1 hour ago, Vladguy said:

I did not expect Maskim Xul to be on today's episode, really! (Is that how you spell it?)

As always, Delinquent does some trolling. Demon carnage ensues. Great stuff.

Maskim Xul, yes it is. English is weird not going to lie lol

But i've never heard of this wad until today, i want to check it out at some point.

What I don't get is why he'd post a spoiler warning on a review. (And only do this on a handful of maps, guess the other ones weren't that good lmao) If you're watching reviews and criticism I can't see how you can complain about getting spoiled. 

4 hours ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

I hope so as well, i hate it when this has to be put under lockdown because of off topic trash

If it's about the latest episode, it's not off topic.

26 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

If it's about the latest episode, it's not off topic.

No i was talking about the last episode where people started to go off topic and started flame wars and stuff. No this one was really good and i hope Mt. Pain can escape because i think Delinquent is going to get either sent home or he is going to get eternal detention 

We are so fucking back babyyyyyy

RIP Delinquent

May 5, 1994 - October 31, 2023

We hardly knew ye.

20 hours ago, Lucius Wooding said:

What I don't get is why he'd post a spoiler warning on a review. (And only do this on a handful of maps, guess the other ones weren't that good lmao) If you're watching reviews and criticism I can't see how you can complain about getting spoiled. 

Makes sense to me, a lot of the wads ive added to my collection are stuff on his show that hes covered, where I see a wad I'd otherwise not have known about, see him giving all this glowing praise for it, then go out to try it myself. The more unique ones with twists that are best experienced yourself, the spoiler warning is a courtesy for people like me.

Watching the Halloween special and seeing how the delinquent was facing the opposite direction when speaking to mtpain27 in one of the sections made me feel like making a "perpetual stare" mod for the pain elemental, where he is always facing the player. I'm sure he could do it himself, and it is just a weird small annoyance, but still, it kinda bothered me. I guess he really is a delinquent, after all.

Just now getting around to viewing this - had a thought while watching the intro that it'd be pretty cool if MtPain compiled a release of the various iterations of the in-game sets used for the introduction and intermission bits, assuming they haven't been deleted after use, at some point in the future. Stuff like the different versions of the Sawed-Off WADs room (the one in this episode is gnarly and awesome) would be cute to walk around in, like some of the maps in old gggmork WADs.