Hell Revealations [/idgames - Final 2024] (Hell Revealed I + II Successor + Deathmatch)

Making something happen once you press two or more switches is doable, but it does require some trickery. That gave me some ideas about what kind of tricks one could pull off with this. A secret might include having to press 3 separate switches. If it was made obvious it was part of a sequence, this could be a neat mechanic.

Many of these effects have a habit of breaking in coop. If they are for a secret area though, it's an acceptable tradeoff.

13 minutes ago, zokum said:

Making something happen once you press two or more switches is doable, but it does require some trickery.

You could make a 666-tagged door require multiple switches if said switches activate remote crushers to destroy hidden Keens. That's one way to achieve it in vanilla.

24 minutes ago, Jayextee said:

You could make a 666-tagged door require multiple switches if said switches activate remote crushers to destroy hidden Keens. That's one way to achieve it in vanilla.

Another way is to raise a sector to the highest neighbouring. The first time you raise it only a hidden inner dummy sector is raised, say 128 units. The next switch you press will then raise the outer sector (your gameplay sector) 128 since the highest neighbouring is now 128 units taller.

11 hours ago, Blue Phoenix said:

You "can" but it requires a bit of trickery.  In my map for Jamal Jones (e1m17) I have a wall lower after pulling 2 key switches on it.

6 hours ago, zokum said:

Making something happen once you press two or more switches is doable, but it does require some trickery. That gave me some ideas about what kind of tricks one could pull off with this. A secret might include having to press 3 separate switches. If it was made obvious it was part of a sequence, this could be a neat mechanic.

Many of these effects have a habit of breaking in coop. If they are for a secret area though, it's an acceptable tradeoff.

6 hours ago, Jayextee said:

You could make a 666-tagged door require multiple switches if said switches activate remote crushers to destroy hidden Keens. That's one way to achieve it in vanilla.

I never said you can't do some multiple action triggers tied to key doors in Vanilla. Although if I did in this particular map, I'd want some sections to lower and not raise. Technically I could use "WR Floor raise to lowest ceiling" in some way probably, but I don't want the sector to lower instantly.

You all have some great and interesting ideas, but for this particular map and section they aren't too helpful. Keep in mind I know myself around vanilla very well, with using Vanilla conveyors, designing an infinitely repeating Vanilla conveyor, even using tricks like the multi switch to open a door "WR floor lower to highest floor" trick used in say Epic 2. If I wanted to use a trick like that here, I probably would have, but tbh the biggest limitation in this map and section is that the map is open and super hot with VPO and drawsegs. I'm talking areas with 125-127 planes and 250-254 segs. So adding anything to change how the segs are built is just going to HOM the hell out of the area.

For example, I'm quite proud of a certain nomo setup I did for MAP07 that makes the map completable in nomo despite the bossdeath actions. Basically a keen door opens only when there are no monsters:

@Firedust Often what Vanilla mappers do is that they put an action switch behind the key door switch to actually do something. That's why in vanilla you often see those double switches used (which tbh I've never been crazy about myself). Unfortunately with how open MAP25 is, that's not really an option.

I'm actually not sure what I'd do when it comes to signposting where to go there anyway. In Boom, for this setup, I'd literally just lower the switches after hitting them and that's it. I want the player to enter the room blocked bars for 2 reasons. 1) it has the megasphere which will set the player up for the final fight, and 2) the map has been designed that technically you only need 2 keys to exit, as if you are a speedrunner you can glide through after only hitting 2 switches (raising 2/3 of the key bars). In addition, I have also put a lot of triggers in that room to do things like lower the wall and raise the archviles in the the red key builidng, just in case the player only grabbed the yellow and blue key.

If you are near vpo/seg limits, there are sometimes tricks you can do. One nice way is to hint the node builder with extra linedefs. Another good thing to do is move all control sectors far away, outside the play area if you haven't already. It will make it easier for the node builder to pick the best partition lines. Using zokumbsp's wide algorithm is another option, but it is probably too slow for this map, and with the never ending loop bug there is no way to know if you will ever finish building. I'm starting to amass a large list of things I need to fix/improve. I really ought to send my mobo/cpu/mem back to get it fixed/replaced :)

You can always hex edit out those extra segs, but that is a chore to get right... It's a weakness with how node builders work. It would be better if they used linedefs for partitions instead of segs, but that adds a few other problems with the current algorithms. You might get away with adding linedefs that span between vertices that are also on that side of the partition.

If I get back to bsp coding, your map looks like a good test case. I've often used doom2.wad, but it isn't really very relevant test data. AV map01,02 and 20 are slightly better since they are much more advanced pwad maps. This map sounds even better.

25 minutes ago, zokum said:

If you are near vpo/seg limits, there are sometimes tricks you can do. One nice way is to hint the node builder with extra linedefs. Another good thing to do is move all control sectors far away, outside the play area if you haven't already. It will make it easier for the node builder to pick the best partition lines. Using zokumbsp's wide algorithm is another option, but it is probably too slow for this map, and with the never ending loop bug there is no way to know if you will ever finish building. I'm starting to amass a large list of things I need to fix/improve. I really ought to send my mobo/cpu/mem back to get it fixed/replaced :)

Interestingly enough, the map is actually already using ZokumBSP... In fact it is using a very specific preset I put together to push maps such as MAP15 and MAP29 just under the Vanilla blockmap limit. This particular map isn't too close to the blockmap, but of course I opted to use ZokumBSP since it is the go-to nodebuilder when I wanna squeeze as much detail out in Vanilla as I can.

28 minutes ago, zokum said:

You can always hex edit out those extra segs, but that is a chore to get right... It's a weakness with how node builders work. It would be better if they used linedefs for partitions instead of segs, but that adds a few other problems with the current algorithms. You might get away with adding linedefs that span between vertices that are also on that side of the partition.

I've already employed some tricks throughout this wad like overlaying linedefs on top of each other so they don't create extra segs, or moving geometry or cutting sectors specifically so that they align with the seg cuts to maximise drawsegs. Doing extra fancy stuff like some of the things you suggest is probably a bit above my wheelhouse.

Looks fun as hell with all these dehacked changes and I want to give feedback but don't have the time to play the maps before release. I'll keep an eye on this!

I scanned RC1 with some bug-finding tools I made. Mostly a few stuck multiplayer/easy mode monsters:

i've made it through Map13 on UV. I had to abandon my "save at keys only" rule pretty quickly but I'm still having a good time. This has been a great set so far, very high quality on average, and avoiding the more boring and frustrating parts of the inspirations. I like most of the gameplay changes (cyberdemons are mean enough without fast rockets) and every map has had something interesting to remember it by. Great work all around.

Very brief (~1 line) comments on each map so far:

2 hours ago, Inuk said:

Looks fun as hell with all these dehacked changes and I want to give feedback but don't have the time to play the maps before release. I'll keep an eye on this!

 I scanned RC1 with some bug-finding tools I made. Mostly a few stuck multiplayer/easy mode monsters:

 

Thanks alot for this, alot of this info has been very helpful :)

A couple of the errors that your tools have found, I'm a little confused why they are throwing an error. Specifically the "stuck" imps on MAP16 and the the "stuck" mancubi on MAP30B (bonus wad). Not sure why your tools marked them as stuck, since I've checked those out and they seem fine.

Everything else though was spot on and we'll fix those stuff for the upcoming RC2.

1 hour ago, Spie812 said:

i've made it through Map13 on UV. I had to abandon my "save at keys only" rule pretty quickly but I'm still having a good time. This has been a great set so far, very high quality on average, and avoiding the more boring and frustrating parts of the inspirations. I like most of the gameplay changes (cyberdemons are mean enough without fast rockets) and every map has had something interesting to remember it by. Great work all around.

Glad you are enjoying what you've played so far.

regarding the faster rockets, the cyberdemon's rockets are a side effect for the players rockets being faster (as they both share the same projectile). It is part of the slightly beefed arsenal, that unfortunately also makes cyberdemons a bit more deadly. However I find that I can often rocket Archviles before they finish their attack, so in a way it's more of a boon than detriment IMO.

Just some minor comments on a couple of your thoughts:

I checked the MAP16 and MAP30B stucks in DSDA-Doom (complevel 2, though cl probably doesn't matter), Chocolate Doom, GZDoom, they're always stuck because they're inside monster-blocking lines.

Here's some recorded evidence from DSDA-Doom:

Beat the main wad! Map 28 kicked my ass so many times, I lost count.

fyi the ghost monster thing didn't work in gzdoom so unless there's a ghost monster setting in the sourceport I am unaware of, the trve experience lies elsewhere.

Started the bonus maps, there appears to be a typo in the loadup screen, maybe intentional? (hell revealtions)

1 hour ago, Firedust said:

Beat the main wad! Map 28 kicked my ass so many times, I lost count.

Fyi: the first version was even harder and had 800 more enemies ;) I still hope the ass-kicking was enjoyable :)

7 hours ago, Inuk said:

I checked the MAP16 and MAP30B stucks in DSDA-Doom (complevel 2, though cl probably doesn't matter), Chocolate Doom, GZDoom, they're always stuck because they're inside monster-blocking lines.

Ah thanks, you were correct then. Didn't realise there were monster-blocking lines there. Thanks :)
 

3 hours ago, Firedust said:

Beat the main wad! Map 28 kicked my ass so many times, I lost count.

Fun fact, like tonytheparrot said, the original version of MAP28 was much harder and grindier. I didn't approve the original submission cuz the precision it required for many of the fights was too much, especially compared to the rest of the set. You may think it sticks out now as being quite difficult, but it used to be far more unforgiving.

3 hours ago, Firedust said:

fyi the ghost monster thing didn't work in gzdoom so unless there's a ghost monster setting in the sourceport I am unaware of, the trve experience lies elsewhere.

Well it seems like I'll have to do a DECORATE solution to spawns new ghost versions of the monsters on ZDoom-based ports. Probably the best fix. Also plan on doing a ZDaemon fix as well, but I'm less versed in the custom code that ZDaemon uses.

3 hours ago, Firedust said:

 Started the bonus maps, there appears to be a typo in the loadup screen, maybe intentional? (hell revealtions)

Oops that's not intentional lol. Apparently the HELP and CREDIT graphics are also misspelled. RIP. This will be fixed in RC2.

So I will mention that the main WAD does have a secret warp only MAP33. The main reason for it being in the main WAD and not the bonus WAD is cuz I thought the deathmatch was fun, and the bonus WAD does not have deathmatch support.

Map 29b: This archvile closet is broken - https://prnt.sc/eY0Z6VyWGSmO

Also this SMM didn't trigger for me no matter what I did (I did cross the tagged linedef multiple times lol): https://prnt.sc/GVmpbTJ3DRAq

2 minutes ago, Firedust said:

Map 29b: This archvile closet is broken - https://prnt.sc/eY0Z6VyWGSmO

Can you elaborate on how it's broken? There's a cell pack in there so the player is supposed to be able to walk in.

3 minutes ago, Firedust said:

Also this SMM didn't trigger for me no matter what I did (I did cross the tagged linedef multiple times lol): https://prnt.sc/GVmpbTJ3DRAq

Are you playing on the UV+ "Hell Revealed II" difficulty? Cuz that SMM is set to multiplayer only.

3 minutes ago, Arsinikk said:

Can you elaborate on how it's broken? There's a cell pack in there so the player is supposed to be able to walk in.

 

Are you playing on the UV+ "Hell Revealed II" difficulty? Cuz that SMM is set to multiplayer only.

Playing on HR II difficulty, been doing so for both wad files.

The archvile closet wall didn't lower. If the SMM is tagged as multiplayer only, why was it spawned during my playthrough? This is strange. GZDoom acting weird?

7 minutes ago, Firedust said:

Playing on HR II difficulty, been doing so for both wad files.

  

The archvile closet wall didn't lower. If the SMM is tagged as multiplayer only, why was it spawned during my playthrough? This is strange. GZDoom acting weird?

HR II difficulty is Ultra-Violence+.

So it's Ultra-Violence with added multiplayer monsters (in singleplayer).
 

Wouldn't say it's the intended experience (lol), since neither I nor the testers have tested UV+ since it was supposed to be like a bullshit difficulty.

LOL so you've been playing the super hard difficulty this whole time... No wonder MAP28 was scary lol.

I'll check on the SMM, perhaps it is just a badly designed monster closet.

5 minutes ago, Firedust said:

The archvile closet wall didn't lower.

You can enter the closet for free once the archvile (or imp) behind the fake wall is dead.

1 minute ago, Arsinikk said:

HR II difficulty is Ultra-Violence+.

So it's Ultra-Violence with added multiplayer monsters (in singleplayer).
 

Wouldn't say it's the intended experience (lol), since nor I or the testers tested UV+ since it was supposed to be like a bullshit difficulty.

 

LOL so you've been playing the super hard difficulty this whole time... No wonder MAP28 was scary lol.

 

I'll check on the SMM, perhaps it is just a badly designed monster closet.

lmao nice

Done with the bonus wad, took me a long time, because map32b ahahaha (map 28 still harder fs imo)

Another thing to note: I've noticed this wad forces particular settings (which is normal, loads of wads force infinite height and disable jumping), but it seems that it automatically enables the lost soul limit. Now, normally this wouldn't be a problem, but some fights (like in map 29 iirc) have Pain Elementals mixed in with cacos, and they are completely helpless. Unless the author's intention was to turn them into meat shields - which tbf makes zero sense given the setup, I believe something is not right here.

Also, also, map 33b made me chuckle.
Slotter dev team: 'Each monster is a chess piece waiting to be utilised effectively'.

Also slotter dev team: 'Hey, Arsinikk, I've been thinking hard about this encounter and I believe a good idea would be to rush the player with 4 hell knights, 2 revenants, and 2 arachnotron turrets up top. What do you think?'
Arsinikk: 'Nah, just add in 20 barons lmao'
 

1 minute ago, galileo31dos01 said:

 

You can enter the closet for free once the archvile (or imp) behind the fake wall is dead.

I couldn't for some reason.

11 minutes ago, Firedust said:

I couldn't for some reason.

I don't know what to tell you honestly, I can kill what's inside and enter the closet no problems. Closet is 48x128 and doomguy is 32x56 so I would assume that's universal even for gzdoom?

3 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

 

I don't know what to tell you honestly, I can kill what's inside and enter the closet no problems. Closet is 48x128 and doomguy is 32x56 so I would assume that's universal even for gzdoom?

Okay, lemme just make sure of something - is there an invisible wall there? Reason why I'm asking is I can't play the wad rn to check it myself.
Because I'm pretty damn sure there was a brick wall there, in fact on both sides.

Just now, Firedust said:

Okay, lemme just make sure of something - is there an invisible wall there?
Because I'm pretty damn sure there was a brick wall there, in fact on both sides.

There is a passable fake wall, aka mid texture on both sides (in this case) you can go through at any time, like when you go through the red fire textures in either skull key section.

21 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

 

There is a passable fake wall, aka mid texture on both sides (in this case) you can go through at any time, like when you go through the red fire textures in either skull key section.

Well, that makes sense now! What happened was, the archvile was stuck (his arms were sticking out, but I thought it was one of those classic Doom things), and I being the dumbass I am automatically assumed the wall didn't lower while there was no wall to lower in the first place. Geez haha. Glad that's been cleared up.

2 hours ago, Firedust said:

Another thing to note: I've noticed this wad forces particular settings (which is normal, loads of wads force infinite height and disable jumping), but it seems that it automatically enables the lost soul limit. Now, normally this wouldn't be a problem, but some fights (like in map 29 iirc) have Pain Elementals mixed in with cacos, and they are completely helpless. Unless the author's intention was to turn them into meat shields - which tbf makes zero sense given the setup, I believe something is not right here.

This mapset was designed with the lost soul limit in mind, however regarding MAP29 I haven't really tested UV+ very much which tends to have quite a bit of Pain Elementals. I do know that map has about 8 lost souls near the end leaving the rest of the pain elementals beforehand only 12 lost souls to use...

Tho tbh I do really find useless pain elementals kind of hilarious, so I don't exactly know if I wanna change it specifically on MAP29.

2 hours ago, Firedust said:

 Slotter dev team: 'Each monster is a chess piece waiting to be utilised effectively'.

Also slotter dev team: 'Hey, Arsinikk, I've been thinking hard about this encounter and I believe a good idea would be to rush the player with 4 hell knights, 2 revenants, and 2 arachnotron turrets up top. What do you think?'
 Arsinikk: 'Nah, just add in 20 barons lmao'

And now you know how difficult it was to test this mapset... "hey this is kind of awful to play isn't it?", "yeah but it's like HR tho"

I think we did a good job by keeping a little bit of those HR moments, without letting them become too awful to play.

43 minutes ago, Arsinikk said:

And now you know how difficult it was to test this mapset... "hey this is kind of awful to play isn't it?", "yeah but it's like HR tho"

I think we did a good job by keeping a little bit of those HR moments, without letting them become too awful to play.

I think overall you guys did a stellar job recapturing that HR spirit, both combat- and visuals-wise without ever venturing into the bland or obnoxious territory (no shotgunning baron hordes, tf for that aye). Thanks a lot for releasing this mapset, I had an absolute blast with it!
I would love to see UV+ runs of some of the maps on here - there are some cool things you can pull off here if you got luck and skill. I generally saved in between encounters during my playthrough, with two exceptions - the damaging floor area in map 28 (that fight took me a long time to get right), during which I saved twice, and the lava area in map 32b (20 damaging floors and no radsuits or wiggle room? seriously, guys? seriously?).

Looking forward to the sequel (I didn't misread the endtext, did I?), Corruption 2, and other cool projects from the Slotter Team!

OMG I so love Hell revealed 1 and 2 I so going to give this a try

RC2 is Here!

>>>>>>>>>>>> DOWNLOAD HRs <<<<<<<<<<<<

Thanks to everyone for their feedback!

We have gone through all of your reports and squashed countless bugs!

We may wait a little while to see if there's anything super broken, but this should be close to the final revision when it comes to non-ZDoom ports!

Currently MAP30 does not work correctly in ZDaemon and ZDoom ports (i.e. no ghost monsters).

I'm currently working with the talented @Worst to come up with a ACS / DEHSUPP solution.

Here is the changelog for RC2:

A special shoutout to @Firedust, @Inuk, @bioshockfan90, and @Vile for RC1 testing and feedback.

Introducing RC3!

  >>>>>>>>>>>> DOWNLOAD HRs <<<<<<<<<<<<

We came, we saw, we kicked some bug ass!

I'm proud to announce this update allows for MAP30 to work correctly in ZDaemon and ZDoom ports.

This is all thanks to the hard work by @Worst to create an amazing ACS solution!

Another large thing to point out is that MAP02 has been updated! It seems that the mapper used HNTR to include the most difficult difficulty of the map. That has since been remedied and now the difficulties should be consistent with the rest of the megawad! In addition, the map has had a minor visual facelift.

Thanks to @bioshockfan90 for pointing out MAP02's HNTR difficulty being crazy, or we wouldn't have known about it.

Here is the changelog for RC3:

I know there are tools that can find out these things, odd balancing like on map02. A few years ago I looked for one, but couldn't find a good one. Maybe it's one of those things one should just make yourself. A web based one would be neat. Just upload a wad to a page and get a report back.

ZokumBSP has some very hackish report stuff that I used while developing. Not sure if it even works, but it has some blockmap html generation. That project has a few dead ends of things that aren't maintained or working well. Maybe I'll conjure up something for 10.12.2023? :)