SIGIL II - Episode 6

7 minutes ago, stevegohome said:

Matthew Kleinlein on X: "@romero December 10th console port releases as well?" / X (twitter.com)

Looks like it is 

Oh NICE!! Nice one 

I’ve just found the tweet. Romero is working with id to determine a release date for it on consoles. 
Great news either way. 

Excited for the episode!

Hopefully, SIGIL II's final map will feature a more interesting climax than SIGIL's E5M8.

On 11/2/2023 at 2:19 PM, Metal_Slayer said:

As much as I like the box art and how I liked the original Sigil, John Romero is selling a box and a bag full of paper, plastic and a USB stick for 70€, plus 20€ for a single 3.5" floppy disk and 75€ for a shirt and a 5.25" floppy. And even then, consider the value of Sigil II:

-No custom textures, sprites or enemies

-Soundtrack composed by a completely unknown artist instead of Buckethead

-Not a 32 level Doom II megawad anymore, now it's just a 9 level Doom episode

-Eventually will be released for free with the MIDI soundtrack

And although that is subjective, there are many wads developed for free that are way better than the first SIGIL. Other than the collectible value there's nothing in this box.

Sigil 2 was never 32 levels. The 32 level megawad is a whole different wad he is working on.

4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

It seems that John Romero has figured out how to monetize a Doom WAD in a way that does not piss off the community.

 

Maybe that is how Id Software should have handled Final Doom and Master Levels for Doom II back in the days.

the WAD itself with just the MIDIs will be free - it's just the extra merch, music, artwork, etc. which is pretty understandable tbh

20 minutes ago, tatsu91 said:

Sigil 2 was never 32 levels.

I wouldn't say that. Sigil II was first announced in 2021 as a Doom II project. One Humanity's internal name of S2MAP05 is quite transparent on this point (S2 for Sigil 2). But at some point between March 2022 and December 2022, there was a change of plan and Sigil 2 was said to be a 9-map episode for Ult. Doom with an unnamed 32-map megawad for Doom II coming later.

1 minute ago, Gez said:

I wouldn't say that. Sigil II was first announced in 2021 as a Doom II project. One Humanity's internal name of S2MAP05 is quite transparent on this point (S2 for Sigil 2). But at some point between March 2022 and December 2022, there was a change of plan and Sigil 2 was said to be a 9-map episode for Ult. Doom with an unnamed 32-map megawad for Doom II coming later.

Beat me to it.

On 11/2/2023 at 8:19 PM, Metal_Slayer said:

 

And although that is subjective, there are many wads developed for free that are way better than the first SIGIL.

Care to give some examples? From this last 3 years, only Eviternity and MyHouse got comparable fame and exposure outside of the community bubble. Maybe Ashes: Afterglow, if you consider TCs too. Other ambitious wads included Heartland, Lost Civilization, Ozonia, although none of them has the classic vibe that made Sigil famous.

Sigil not winning a cacoward in 2019 with some VASTLY inferior wads had been selected instead kinda tarnished the entire legacy of the thing. You have to hate Romero and his hype to not rate Sigil at least in the top 10 of the last 5 years. And Sigil 2, based on Romero's Twitch videos will be an improvement, some levels seem to have some real eyecandy it, not to mention the challenge.

Now we got the proper episode 2 and 3 we wanted back in the day. Maybe we get an episode 1 rework too one day.

3 minutes ago, Captain Viridian said:

Sigil not winning a cacoward in 2019 with some VASTLY inferior wads had been selected instead kinda tarnished the entire legacy of the thing. You have to hate Romero and his hype to not rate Sigil at least in the top 10 of the last 5 years. And Sigil 2, based on Romero's Twitch videos will be an improvement, some levels seem to have some real eyecandy it, not to mention the challenge.

Subjective take. Just like the Cacowards!

Sigil is not my favorite WAD by a long shot. I absolutely adore Romero and his community but it's a disservice to the rest of the community to just award a project based on who someone is. and his 2016 WAD, Tech Gone Bad, was the very first thing mentioned in that year's cacowards. so no, they don't hate him, there's just a boatload of other projects that were just as good or better to award on the merits of those projects. Which, again, are subjective. No one has ever said that the Cacowards are the be-all, end-all of what's good in Doom, it is just a selection by a panel of people. That is it.

And let's be real, Romero is adored by basically the entirety of the Doom community. Do you really think his legacy is going to hinge on what a group of ten people say?

46 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

the WAD itself with just the MIDIs will be free - it's just the extra merch, music, artwork, etc. which is pretty understandable tbh

Yes, that is what I meant.

18 minutes ago, Captain Viridian said:

although none of them has the classic vibe that made Sigil famous.

For real, it's not really that much classic vibe, and also it's limit removing instead of vanilla.

There are those OOB areas that just can't be fit in vanilla, so it has a very distinct feeling to those. Though I like those, I wouldn't call it "classic" vibe by any mean.

I think for what it is, Sigil is something very special. It shows off a very deliberate design, the likes of which we've rarely seen, and demonstrates a great deal of personality using virtually only assets from the original Doom.
The gameplay or aesthetics may or may not appeal to you (though personally I think a lot more people would like it if they didn't force themselves to play it in UV), but it certainly seems to me to be a project that's up there with the big boys.

19 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

 

Subjective take. Just like the Cacowards!

Sigil is not my favorite WAD by a long shot. I absolutely adore Romero and his community but it's a disservice to the rest of the community to just award a project based on who someone is. and his 2016 WAD, Tech Gone Bad, was the very first thing mentioned in that year's cacowards. so no, they don't hate him, there's just a boatload of other projects that were just as good or better to award on the merits of those projects. Which, again, are subjective. No one has ever said that the Cacowards are the be-all, end-all of what's good in Doom, it is just a selection by a panel of people. That is it.

 

And let's be real, Romero is adored by basically the entirety of the Doom community. Do you really think his legacy is going to hinge on what a group of ten people say?

Then feel free to give your examples. I'm not gonna cherrypick here, but do you really think that the 10 cacoward winners in 2019 were all better than Sigil? Other than Eviternity, all of them are now forgotten, and none of them were actually anything remarkable.

Tech Gone Bad won, because back in 2016, it was an all rosy, look who's back moment. When Romero became a competition, suddenly everybody started shitting on him, and using this "your wad is only played because of your name" fake narrative. Granted, if he had made something average, it wouldn't have become popular. Sigil was popular because it was good, and refreshingly different to the typical community wad, didn't follow the tired tropes, and all levels had their own visions and own gameplay/visual narratives.

It doesn't mean Sigil didn't have its issues. Shotgunning barons in the early levels were pretty annoying, the crusher maze in M4 could have been better and the secret level was mediocre. It's a 8/10 wad, yet, it was objectively better than at least 7-8 of the year's cacoward winners.

12 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

 

For real, it's not really that much classic vibe, and also it's limit removing instead of vanilla.

 

There are those OOB areas that just can't be fit in vanilla, so it has a very distinct feeling to those. Though I like those, I wouldn't call it "classic" vibe by any mean.

Limit removing instead of vanilla doesn't mean it can't have classic vibes. When I played most maps, I quickly felt it was a time travel back to 1994. Something I didn't get with stuff like DTWID and it's various sequels and other id style wads. Classic vibes is coming from the fact that all assets are used in the way originally intended. The imp in the corner looks like an imp in the corner. Even the best produced wads struggle to get this vibe, somehow the imp in the corner feels a bit out of place.

4 minutes ago, Captain Viridian said:

 It's a 8/10 wad, yet, it was objectively better than at least 7-8 of the year's cacoward winners.

I'm not even going to humor the rest of the post (and quite frankly I don't want to derail the conversation any further, this thread is about Sigil 2) because there is no such thing as objectivity when talking about creative endeavors.

Verdant Citadel, Lost Civilization (which also got a sequel this year), Remnant, The Wayfarer, Paradise (which birthed Supercharge, one of the best gameplay mods available in my opinion) were all fantastic. Even NeonDM for multiplayer was good and I still play it to this day. 

Also worth noting - Sigil did get mention. It was a runner - up. And runner-up is still pretty damn good considering the volume of shit that has to be sifted through each year. A mention at all is big these days. Runner-up does not mean "lost at the Cacowards" - it is still recognition in its own right and a Cacoward in the technical sense. You're acting like it didn't get mentioned at all which is patently false.

1 minute ago, Major Arlene said:

I'm not even going to humor the rest of the post (and quite frankly I don't want to derail the conversation any further, this thread is about Sigil 2) because there is no such thing as objectivity when talking about creative endeavors.

 

Verdant Citadel, Lost Civilization (which also got a sequel this year), Remnant, The Wayfarer, Paradise (which birthed Supercharge, one of the best gameplay mods available in my opinion) were all fantastic. Even NeonDM for multiplayer was good and I still play it to this day. 

 

Also worth noting - Sigil did get mention. It was a runner - up. And runner-up is still pretty damn good considering the volume of shit that has to be sifted through each year. A mention at all is big these days. Runner-up does not mean "lost at the Cacowards" - it is still recognition in its own right and a Cacoward in the technical sense. You're acting like it didn't get mentioned at all which is patently false.

Well, at least you gave your examples. From that list, only Lost Civilization was any good, the rest were mediocre in my opinion with some questionable assets (Wayfarer, Verdant Citadel), but yeah, enjoy your gameplay on them.

Off-topic ends.

I liked SIGIL but didn't love it and I could see how it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea but I do praise the distinct visual design and for Romero doing something different. I played it when it was new so I'm gonna need to give it another go by the time its sequel drops to better compare them.

28 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

IMA LET U FINISH BUT SIGIL WAS THE GREATEST WAD OF ALL TIME! ALL TIME!!!

 

Seriously, it's a darn good wad, but "one of the best of all time"? Claiming no wads from the last 5 years other than MyHouse (lolwat) and Eviternity even compare!? It's just ignorant nonsense. It's actually such a dumb prospect and point of contention that I considered splitting it, but.. meh 

 

FWIW there are multiple DBPs, plus wads like Abscission, Nostalgia, Nova II, Solar Struggle, etc that are, in my opinion, better examples of "fun Doom experiences". I hate that this sounds like I'm shit talking Sigil because it is rock solid fun, but you have to be high on fanboy fumes to legitimately consider it one of the GOATs..

I can definitely see a defense for it being a personal favorite.  It's one of my favorites!  But yeah...on the basis of combat design, variety, accessibility, balance, there are so many others that outshine it.  After all, Doom is so diverse, why does there need to be a "best"? The great thing about this game is it can be anything to anyone!

I think Sigil 2 is way too overhyped for what the actual wad is gonna constitute of.

I don't think it will be too different from Sigil 1 gameplay wise to be honest. It will still have cramped corridors with barons, annoying lava pits and perhaps even some ammo issues.

We'll see. Maybe he's improved since then. Also big LOL at the people who're calling for a Cacoward because Romero made a thing. 

58 minutes ago, Captain Viridian said:

 

Well, at least you gave your examples. From that list, only Lost Civilization was any good, the rest were mediocre in my opinion with some questionable assets (Wayfarer, Verdant Citadel), but yeah, enjoy your gameplay on them.

 

Off-topic ends.

You'd bump Eviternity for SIGIL?

Alrighty then.

Dunno, I loved the original SIGIL. Romero's name  definitely affects the experience, but it's hard to disassociate, imo. Still, about not winning a cacoward, I see no problem at this at all lol. Being a runner-up is still quite awesome, imo.

I wonder if current Id Software developers would be down to make a project similar in scope to SIGIL.

Classic Doom is a very different beast from Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, so I would be very interested in seeing those newer talents try their hand at mapping - if they have not done so already - and showcase their own design philosophy.

If they coordinate with John Romero, they might even be able to make a full megawad!

7 minutes ago, Deadwing said:

Being a runner-up is still quite awesome, imo.

Wasn't he sent an actual Cacoward from Doomworld back then during the 2016 ceremony?

1 hour ago, Captain Viridian said:

 

Limit removing instead of vanilla doesn't mean it can't have classic vibes.

I'm not saying it can't, but simply Sigil doesn't feel 90s. That's it.

10 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I'm not saying it can't, but simply Sigil doesn't feel 90s. That's it.

Levels are basically the evolution of what you have seen in Map11, Map17, Map26, Map29, E4M2 or E4M6. E4M6 is like a Sigil map released in the 90s.

Modern wads have evolved from Plutonia and Alien Vendetta, which is a completely different experience. That's not bad, but way overdone, and while some did it in high quality (like Eviternity or Heartland), most are generic and unrecognisable for people outside the bubble. MyHouse is something completely different, and then it exploded... you don't have to be John Romero to get recognition. NRFTL wasn't his work, and was famous too for a reason.

Since people here are way too overprotective now just this discussion scratched the surfece, it's better turn back the thread to its roots.

I expect SIGIL II to be similar to the original, small to medium sized and very gameplay focussed, full of puzzles, ambushes, dark architecture, the typical Romero fashion and more Jimmy songs too. I'll download the free wad when it is released.

Incendio Crucio may need a sequel too. Could this tempt me?.

What was great about Sigil was that it felt unlike anything else, and given the number of maps that have been released in the period between the original release of Doom and the release of Sigil, that is pretty darn impressive and shows that Romero still has the ability to create something that will stick in your mind.

That said, I would be lying if I said I enjoyed every element of Sigil, some ideas worked, some didn't. It will be interesting to see the direction Sigil 2 goes in.