[RC4.0 - mostly final release] Cleanout – A Boom compatible Ultimate Doom slaughter wad

32 minutes ago, Razza said:

Please remove my map from this project. The blatant disrespect you have shown towards other people's work is shameful, and I do not wish to be associated with this any longer

I'm not disrespecting anyone. I'm just voicing my opinion on unfounded BS criticism and there is NOTHING shamefull about it!

1 minute ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

I'm not disrespecting anyone. I'm just voicing my opinion on unfounded BS criticism and there is NOTHING shamefull about it!

how old are you? genuinely curious.

2 minutes ago, roadworx said:

how old are you? genuinely curious.

23 years and 9 months 

10 minutes ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

23 years and 9 months 

if that's true - and i do have a hard time believing that - then get a grip, grow up, and act your goddamn age. i'm 23 as well, and if i screw up, i don't sit around acting like i'm twelve. i own up to my mistakes, learn from them (or at least try to), and move on like an adult. unless you are a literal child, then there's absolutely no fucking reason for you to be acting like this. again: it is fucking embarrassing. it's like watching a 12y/o have a temper tantrum because they got caught doing something they shouldn't have.

8 minutes ago, Bank said:

Truly an epic yolo.

 

@epicyolomaster420 your “haters” in this thread are actually your critics, the very type of people you’ve asked for feedback and attention from. I promise you there is no conspiracy on this forum to make you look bad or misinterpret your words, and instead many people are trying to guide you away from the type of common attribution errors and social faux pas that can detract or derail a good-faith project. 
 

Defensive is not a position from which you can project confidence and power, and you’ll probably have a better chance getting the reception you desire by being gracious and listening to and engaging with the community you wish to be a part of. Mistakes are forgivable and natural, but be careful not to turn mistakes made in ignorance or naïveté into decisions made in anger or arrogance.

You have a point there and I do agree with you, but I've just about had it with the criticism. For that reason I've decided to remove the download links and from now on only distribute the WAD through DM's to people who actually want it and are willing to message me for it.

@Razza I hope you're happy now...

If any other Cleanout mapper wishes to voice their disagrement on the inclusion of their stuff, then by my guest. Do so! They'll just have to to release their maps or music made for this project on their own then.

If anyone else wants to talk shit about the project and disassociate themselves from it than they can do that too. I no longer care!

5 hours ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

IN MOST CASES I AT LEAST MADE THE EFFORT OF RETEXTURING AN/OR CHANGING THE GEOMETRY AROUND before I called it a day so as far as I'm concerned that makes it even less of a problem! If you or any else has a problem with that than that's your problem not mine!

Even if you have the technicality of permission, it doesn't make lifting entire monuments and landscapes for your maps much better. The fact that you can't even say "in all cases" is baffling, and basically an admittance to dropping in whatever you liked. People have a problem with this because there is no reason to map if all it takes to create a "masterpiece" is digging through the Lego tote to find your favorite geometry. Why should I bother playing through the Sunder geometry when I could just play Sunder? Mirroring it, retexturing it, or whatever does not change the fact that it's copied from someone else.

I think the one thing you really need to understand about plagiarism is that it's a one and done. If you have any copied material in your wad, then it's safe to assume that nothing in it is original. I am skeptical of you making a single line in all of these maps because your attitude has already proved that you'll just chop together sections of maps in the first place. Admitting that you ran out of ideas and were "forced" to start using other maps' sections as a result (you were not) makes you look incapable of mapping if anything, and just because the mappers themselves aren't barring you from bootlegging the work they actually did have ideas for, that doesn't mean it is at all a good choice.

You can say "it's ok" as many times as you want and it will never be true. The best case scenario is that you're a damn good troll.

General Roasterock beat me to it and said it better than I was going to, but you're basically admitting that you treated Sunder and other wads like a cookie cutter set because you were too lazy to come up with something original, this suggests to me that you've bitten off more than you can chew and should have made a smaller project that you could actually put your own effort into. TBH even if you have permission, it's downright lazy to copy from someone elses project, and on top of that it's an incredibly bad look to then be claiming you've made a masterpiece.

3 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

Even if you have the technicality of permission, it doesn't make lifting entire monuments and landscapes for your maps much better. The fact that you can't even say "in all cases" is baffling, and basically an admittance to dropping in whatever you liked. People have a problem with this because there is no reason to map if all it takes to create a "masterpiece" is digging through the Lego tote to find your favorite geometry. Why should I bother playing through the Sunder geometry when I could just play Sunder? Mirroring it, retexturing it, or whatever does not change the fact that it's copied from someone else.

OK even I can't argue with that. I just never thought of it that way before & while I can't agree with the following:

3 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

If you have any copied material in your wad, then it's safe to assume that nothing in it is original. I am skeptical of you making a single line in all of these maps because your attitude has already proved that you'll just chop together sections of maps in the first place.

,because my vivid memory of all the work I did do for this project actively contradicts it I will admit that my attitude hasn't done anything to let people believe me. I really did make most of the maps in this project myself and tried to make most of each of them fully original at that, but ran out of both ideas and time and then decided to resort to copy pasting as I wanted to be done with the project ASAP, rather than get bogged down for weeks, months or maybe even years in trying to make collosal uber detailed maps, that also play great like Insane_Gazebo with Sunder.  

I had many struggles in my personal life recently, wanted this project to be over ASAP so that I could move on to dealing with these struggles, but at the same time still allowed my ambition with this project to be way higher than I should have in such a situation, as a result decided to cut corners and look for short cuts to success and never even stopped to think that what I'm doing isn't OK (in fact I even felt entitled to do such things as I thought that, what I'm going through makes what I was doing justified), for which I am sorry. Because of this I would like to:

1. I am sorry for anyone I may have offended in my last few posts, as I clearly wasn't thinking straight and was too busy being outraged on how my attempts at wraping up the project were being rejected, while thinking what I did was perfectly fine AND

2. Let everyone know that this:

3 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

The best case scenario is that you're a damn good troll.

is not true as I am instead a genuine and legit experienced mapper who just allowed himself to take quite a few shortcuts too many and convinced himself that doing so is OK. AND 

3. Announce that I will indeed not distribute the current version of the WAD without permission of every mapper involved in it's creation and will therefore remove @Razza's map and if any other mapper comes forth their levels before sending the WAD off to people in DM's. I still intend on keeping the download links removed so that people don't download the current not permited WAD, and may even consider taking out other copy-pasted sections (even though I have permission to keep them in), but only if my motivation to work on this project returns (as it's currently all spent) and if I also get any free time (as I will no longer have any for quite a while now due to my school obligations which have accumulated).

If anyone really wants to get their hands on these WADS I will send it to them after I've removed Razza's level and potencialy any other content that people, who've worked on this project decide they want gone, but other than that this is the only activity this project is likely to see for the next few weeks, months or perhaps even longer.

Again, I'm sorry! 

3 minutes ago, knifeworld said:

General Roasterock beat me to it and said it better than I was going to, but you're basically admitting that you treated Sunder and other wads like a cookie cutter set because you were too lazy to come up with something original, this suggests to me that you've bitten off more than you can chew and should have made a smaller project that you could actually put your own effort into. TBH even if you have permission, it's downright lazy to copy from someone elses project, and on top of that it's an incredibly bad look to then be claiming you've made a masterpiece.

Yes, exactly. I agree! That's exactly what happend!

I think that it's true that copy pasting stuff from other wads, although in this case allowed, is a bit lame even if you retextured the things you took.

I also think it's true that you put a lot of effort into the wad.

Ultimately, I personally agree that you should seek to make a smaller set of maps. Honor the things that inspired you, but be original. Make your own grand structures and fights. You don't have to make a megawad. You could take the megawad you have here, remove the copy pasted bits and leave the stuff that you think represents you at your best, and you could compress that down to one episode. Your set could be 3 maps and it would be fine. You could even make it one map and it would be fine.

But always be original, let your inspirations shine through without taking from them, because taking from someone robs you of an opportunity to grow yourself.

Anyway, whatever happens, good luck with your mapping efforts.

Also just so that people are aware my maps in this project (even as it currently stands) are all at least 75-80% original with the exeption of E1M3, E2M3, E2M4, E3M1, E3M3, E3M5, E3M6, E3M7, E3M9, E4M1 & E4M2 which are 100% my own creations and don't contain a single linedef copy pasted from anyone else's work, E3M8 which is like 50% copy pasted and E1M7 whose originality procentage I can't really estimate because it started off life as a full Doom1 E1M8 copy paste (back when I decided I was going to make this map for RAMP and decided to start there) but then got changed up and added to more and more until eventualy becoming a tribute map and first being released to RAMP as the map named "Boss Rush" (map156) and then turned into the map that is in this WAD today.

If you don't believe me then I'd be happy to send you the WAD (minus Razza's level) and the very extensive README (that talks of this in great detail) so that you can find out for yourself!

5 minutes ago, taviow said:

I think that it's true that copy pasting stuff from other wads, although in this case allowed, is a bit lame even if you retextured the things you took.

 

I also think it's true that you put a lot of effort into the wad.

 

Ultimately, I personally agree that you should seek to make a smaller set of maps. Honor the things that inspired you, but be original. Make your own grand structures and fights. You don't have to make a megawad. You could take the megawad you have here, remove the copy pasted bits and leave the stuff that you think represents you at your best, and you could compress that down to one episode. Your set could be 3 maps and it would be fine. You could even make it one map and it would be fine.

 

But always be original, let your inspirations shine through without taking from them, because taking from someone robs you of an opportunity to grow yourself.

 

Anyway, whatever happens, good luck with your mapping efforts.

Thanks. Also yes I was thinking of doing something like that, though I imagined something more along the lines of 2 or maybe 3 episodes long. It will probably be quite a while before I have the time and motivation to take on something like this though...

3 hours ago, cannonball said:

using Ribbik’s as a muse would be far better than Gazebo’s stuff in my opinion as the focus is on smaller encounters and emphasis on the monsters strengths and weaknesses

Also that's an interesting suggestion. I may just look into it... Thanks!

yayyy happy ending, it's pretty rare to see actual self-reflection in cases like this :)

@epicyolomaster420 first of all, i just wanna apologize for coming off as being an asshole. i'm way way way too blunt and get heated too quickly, and that third post of mine was especially uncalled for. so, i'm sorry.

secondly, i wanna respond to some of the things you've said.

2 hours ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

I really did make most of the maps in this project myself and tried to make most of each of them fully original at that, but ran out of both ideas and time and then decided to resort to copy pasting as I wanted to be done with the project ASAP, rather than get bogged down for weeks, months or maybe even years in trying to make collosal uber detailed maps, that also play great like Insane_Gazebo with Sunder.  

I had many struggles in my personal life recently, wanted this project to be over ASAP so that I could move on to dealing with these struggles, but at the same time still allowed my ambition with this project to be way higher than I should have in such a situation, as a result decided to cut corners and look for short cuts to success and never even stopped to think that what I'm doing isn't OK (in fact I even felt entitled to do such things as I thought that, what I'm going through makes what I was doing justified), for which I am sorry.

i absolutely understand this and, yeah, getting bogged down in a project can be absolutely terrible. something that you have to remember though - and i'm not sure if you knew this considering that you're newer to the community - is that insane_gazebo has been working on sunder for...god, who even knows how long? it was first released in 2009, so at least 14 years, though i'm sure it had been developed for even longer before that. hell, even abandon, which was worked on by two people, took four years to make. projects like these take a long time; we can't all be myolden, coughing up a new megawad every other tuesday. a lot of us have things going on in life or get burnt out rather quickly.

that's not to say that you'll take that long, however. the point of what i'm trying to say is that these things take a long-ass time, and in the case of making slaughtermaps like ig and benjo, a shitload of practice.

1 hour ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

Thanks. Also yes I was thinking of doing something like that, though I imagined something more along the lines of 2 or maybe 3 episodes long. It will probably be quite a while before I have the time and motivation to take on something like this though...

do that way later down the line. for now, i highly suggest focusing on releasing individual maps or short three or four map wads. not every masterpiece has to be a full-length megawad. look at wads like miasma, crumpets, or nilla doom; all are fondly remembered and are still brought up to this day, but none of those are more than ten maps. hell, miasma is just a single map.

however, don't think that you're gonna make the absolutely super amazing thing that you wanna make right away, even if you do think you're experienced (that's not to say you aren't btw). as i said earlier, these things take a lot of practice, and making something incredible can't be rushed. don't take that as discouragement, though! creating this wad likely served as great practice, because speedmapping can help out a lot when it comes to getting better. not to mention, you have some neat ideas in this wad, and they have a very mid-90s feel to them that i find really charming, and i know i'm not the only one who thinks that.

also, another suggestion: stick with doom 2 maps for now. making really good doom 1 maps is hard, and i sincerely believe that not a single person who has posted in this thread (besides maybe cannonball, who has been making doom 1 maps for a long time now. even then, it's a maybe) is currently capable of making a good doom 1 slaughtermap of all things regardless of their experience, heh.

regardless of all of this, don't be intimidated by the fact that you have a long way to go. everyone does when it comes to this. keep at it and you'll get there eventually - hell, you'll probably get there before you know it :p

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

yayyy happy ending, it's pretty rare to see actual self-reflection in cases like this :)

 

@epicyolomaster420 first of all, i just wanna apologize for coming off as being an asshole. i'm way way way too blunt and get heated too quickly, and that third post of mine was especially uncalled for. so, i'm sorry.

 

secondly, i wanna respond to some of the things you've said.

 

i absolutely understand this and, yeah, getting bogged down in a project can be absolutely terrible. something that you have to remember though - and i'm not sure if you knew this considering that you're newer to the community - is that insane_gazebo has been working on sunder for...god, who even knows how long? it was first released in 2009, so at least 14 years, though i'm sure it had been developed for even longer before that. hell, even abandon, which was worked on by two people, took four years to make. projects like these take a long time; we can't all be myolden, coughing up a new megawad every other tuesday. a lot of us have things going on in life or get burnt out rather quickly.

 

that's not to say that you'll take that long, however. the point of what i'm trying to say is that these things take a long-ass time, and in the case of making slaughtermaps like ig and benjo, a shitload of practice.

 

do that way later down the line. for now, i highly suggest focusing on releasing individual maps or short three or four map wads. not every masterpiece has to be a full-length megawad. look at wads like miasma, crumpets, or nilla doom; all are fondly remembered and are still brought up to this day, but none of those are more than ten maps. hell, miasma is just a single map.

 

however, don't think that you're gonna make the absolutely super amazing thing that you wanna make right away, even if you do think you're experienced (that's not to say you aren't btw). as i said earlier, these things take a lot of practice, and making something incredible can't be rushed. don't take that as discouragement, though! creating this wad likely served as great practice, because speedmapping can help out a lot when it comes to getting better. not to mention, you have some neat ideas in this wad, and they have a very mid-90s feel to them that i find really charming, and i know i'm not the only one who thinks that.

 

also, another suggestion: stick with doom 2 maps for now. making really good doom 1 maps is hard, and i sincerely believe that not a single person who has posted in this thread (besides maybe cannonball, who has been making doom 1 maps for a long time now. even then, it's a maybe) is currently capable of making a good doom 1 slaughtermap of all things regardless of their experience, heh.

 

 

regardless of all of this, don't be intimidated by the fact that you have a long way to go. everyone does when it comes to this. keep at it and you'll get there eventually - hell, you'll probably get there before you know it :p

Thanks a lot for the kind words and the motivational speech and also no worries: I needed treatment like the kind I was getting earlier to get reason through that thick skull of mine (yes I saw that post before you deleted it...).Also come to think of it I was being kind of an asshole myself, so I didn't really deserve better...

Also since I'm not only curious but also don't want to end up cutting something that I arguably shouldn't since it might be good I was wondering if you could elaborate on what you think these neat ideas are:

37 minutes ago, roadworx said:

you have some neat ideas in this wad, and they have a very mid-90s feel to them that i find really charming, and i know i'm not the only one who thinks that

Thanks in advance for your reply and also thanks again for your last post. It was really positive & I liked it :)

20 minutes ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

Thanks a lot for the kind words and the motivational speech and also no worries: I needed treatment like that to get reason through that thick skull of mine (yes I saw that post before you deleted it...).Also come to think of it I was being kind of an asshole myself, so I didn't really deserve better...

nah, two wrongs don't make a right. sorry for saying that btw, i had a mod delete it after someone told me that it really wasn't helping the situation lol

10 minutes ago, epicyolomaster420 said:

Also since I'm not only curious but also don't want to end up cutting something that I arguably shouldn't since it might be good I was wondering if you could elaborate on what you think these neat ideas are:

Thanks in advance for your reply and also thanks again for your last post. It was really positive & I liked it :)

 

well, i did skip around a bit so don't expect a thorough analysis, but i can give some examples. something i will say with a lot of these is that the execution falls short of the true potential, but what matters is that you have the actual ideas. also keep in mind that i'm tired af rn so yeah xd

- in p4m1, while the arena is rather simple, i think the idea of the cyberdemons on the outer edges teleporting around is a pretty cool idea. granted, your implementation of it is rather janky, but it can always be refined.

- the lost souls firing projectiles upon death is something that has a lot of potential imo. i see you sued the hell out of them, which is understandable considering that they're not just the typical doom 1 firing-in-a-straight-line sorta deal, which is boring as hell imo. that's why doom 2 is so much better in general to mod for lol

- in p1m8 when you get the blue key, the map filling up with enemies is good imo. however, if it had been done much quicker and more spread out so that it's far more of a threat to the player just trying to get to the blue key door, then it could've landed way better. also, it would've been extra good had you opened the alcove with the rocket launcher only when they all started teleporting in, heh.

- the hallway with pinkies on both sides in e1m2 has potential, cuz you're trying to force your way through one side while pinkies are coming up from behind you, but you need to trap the player in there somehow cuz the door lets them just go back out

- all the times you put ammo and weapons behind enemies in monster closets and stuff are good

- in p1m3, the part where you're on that bridge thing and open the door to reveal two lost souls that you need to kill is an idea that could be expanded upon. if it were doom 2, having two revs along with a much thinner bridge would be really good, heh

- all of p2m3 is absolutely adorable, i love it. getting to go through the vents as a secret is amazing lol

5 minutes ago, roadworx said:

nah, two wrongs don't make a right. sorry for saying that btw, i had a mod delete it after someone told me that it really wasn't helping the situation lol

 

well, i did skip around a bit so don't expect a thorough analysis, but i can give some examples. something i will say with a lot of these is that the execution falls short of the true potential, but what matters is that you have the actual ideas. also keep in mind that i'm tired af rn so yeah xd

 

- in p4m1, while the arena is rather simple, i think the idea of the cyberdemons on the outer edges teleporting around is a pretty cool idea. granted, your implementation of it is rather janky, but it can always be refined.

- the lost souls firing projectiles upon death is something that has a lot of potential imo. i see you sued the hell out of them, which is understandable considering that they're not just the typical doom 1 firing-in-a-straight-line sorta deal, which is boring as hell imo. that's why doom 2 is so much better in general to mod for lol

- in p1m8 when you get the blue key, the map filling up with enemies is good imo. however, if it had been done much quicker and more spread out so that it's far more of a threat to the player just trying to get to the blue key door, then it could've landed way better. also, it would've been extra good had you opened the alcove with the rocket launcher only when they all started teleporting in, heh.

- the hallway with pinkies on both sides in e1m2 has potential, cuz you're trying to force your way through one side while pinkies are coming up from behind you, but you need to trap the player in there somehow cuz the door lets them just go back out

- all the times you put ammo and weapons behind enemies in monster closets and stuff are good

- in p1m3, the part where you're on that bridge thing and open the door to reveal two lost souls that you need to kill is an idea that could be expanded upon. if it were doom 2, having two revs along with a much thinner bridge would be really good, heh

- all of p2m3 is absolutely adorable, i love it. getting to go through the vents as a secret is amazing lol

OK Thanks. I'll try to keep all this stuff in and if possible timewise further improve on it!

So after a month and a half I've now managed to either replace a vast majority of all the copy pasted areas or change them up so much that the geometry is no longer comprable to the original one that was copy pasted, have removed Razza's map and even made a replacement map for it, based on a similar idea. This version of the wad is still not yet final as I do still intend to make quite a few changes to P3M8, which is still very unpolished and untested at the moment (as the level had to be basicaly completely gutted to remove the copy-pasted areas and then reassembled with other areas), but this version of the wad should do for now...

Also happy new year's everyone!

I'd like to extend my apologies to anyone who may have tried & failed to download the wad since my last post, as it seems that the share link is broken because the wad is refusing to sync from my computer's onedrive folder to the cloud. I'll try my best to fix this as soon as possible, but so far everything I tried has failed so it might take some time, though I suppose that this does at least give me an opportunity to finish polishing and testing the P3M8 level so perhaps this is for the best... 

OK so I finaly managed to fix the link. I found that instead of leading just to the file itself like it was suppose to the link went to the entire Cleanout folder. The file as it turns out had synched up into there but only didn't show that it did on the synchronisation status icon next to the file on the onedrive folder on my computer. Either way the link works now and goes to just the file so there is no need for people to search for it specificaly in the flood of other files.

I've also done some work to P3M8, but it was only enough work to apply some polish. The level still ain't tested yet and some rooms are still in their prototype faze & thrown together in a hurry so I'll still be making adjustments...

On 1/4/2024 at 5:09 PM, epicyolomaster420 said:

So after a month and a half I've now managed to either replace a vast majority of all the copy pasted areas or change them up so much that the geometry is no longer comprable to the original one that was copy pasted, have removed Razza's map and even made a replacement map for it, based on a similar idea. This version of the wad is still not yet final as I do still intend to make quite a few changes to P3M8, which is still very unpolished and untested at the moment (as the level had to be basicaly completely gutted to remove the copy-pasted areas and then reassembled with other areas), but this version of the wad should do for now...

 

Also happy new year's everyone!

ok so i dont follow slaughter/challenge mapping much but, one i find it very impressive that you were able to replace all the material people were upset with in just 6 weeks. During the holidays too! must not have had as much time at the computer, you know visiting family prepping food, shopping. Whats your method i ask? you said that that you "changed the geometry" but what does that mean really? change of texture, monsters? move a few sectors? You know it kinda sounds like this thing called plagiarism, you might not know but its this thing some dipshits do where they take something that wasnt theirs and pretend they made it and just change a few small things about it. 

Also seems strange how those screenshots by Razza show a pretty close resembelance to his map and yours, you know you said simiar idea, both share the same layout but not textures. I think that style is kinda a more texture thing than a 2d view thing but you know im not a good mapper so idk.

Then Its reassembled with other areas. What other areas? ones you made orrrrrr... some that you stole. again. you got people to give you a second chance and you toss it. because you cant create.
you are untrustworthy, and i wont be suprised to see a ban in your future.

Epicplagiarism-o-master420 is at it again, this is really low.

But yeah, on a serious note, how about not continuing to do this shit.

This is going to severely hurt the chances of MtPain making a Dean of Doom about this D:

bruh.

the worst part for me is that i actually defended you elsewhere after you had "apologized" because i thought that maybe once you wisened up and started taking this more seriously, you could become someone pretty cool and actually start making some really neat stuff; your maps are really amateurish and bizarre, but i thought that maybe you had potential. unfortunately, i'm gullible as all shit and you're just as conceited, manipulative, and incapable of creative thought as you had originally come off as.

i probably should've listened to everyone saying that you were full of shit, in hindsight. i figured that since you're a kid (and you are a kid, for fuck sake no adult adds the months to their age lmfao) that maybe you were just misguided and needed to be humbled, but no, you're just an asshole. i still have hope that one day you'll grow up and not be such an arrogant fuck, but honestly, if you're this incapable of learning now then i'm not putting much faith in that.

Well... that was epicfailmaster420 moment.