Honest opinions on Shores of Hell and Inferno?

I've noticed a fairly recent trend of people criticising Doom 2 for having too many Sandy maps. I personally don't mind them, on the contrary, I enjoy the likes of Downtown and Factory, which, in my opinion, moved the genre away from its dungeon crawler corridor shooter roots. But the trend of "open ended maps" might have started with Mt. Erebus.

So, let's talk about Sandy episodes from original Doom - Shores of Hell and Inferno. I see many people cite KDiTD as their favorite Doom episode and the reason they prefer Doom over Doom 2 (in my own opinion, limited monster and weapon selection really brings it down) but somehow, Shores and Inferno are usually omitted from the discussion.

So what is your opinion on Shores of Hell and Inferno, which one is better and how do they compare to Sandy levels from Doom 2?

They're both substantially hampered by the overall small texture selection; especially E3, which uses a lot of very out of place, techbasy texturing. I know the whole 'hell adopting technology spidermama cyberdemon' etc, but I feel both E2 and E3 would have been stronger with a little more texture exclusivity.

Layout and gameplay wise, I don't mind either. UD is just sort of a homogeneous gameplay soup anyway.  

EDIT: E2M9 aside, of course. That's not even a map. 

I don't mind the episodes. The Shores of Hell can get a bit boring sometimes but I like Inferno just as much as KDiTD.

As for comparing them to Doom 2's maps, I like how the maps have a bit more variety in them. Most of Doom 1 is just crowded techbases with some slight changes in how they look. It's only until Inferno you actually get to see some variety. Even if the execution of Doom 2's maps wasn't the best imo, I do still like how they at least look different to each other and aren't just enclosed rooms.

51 minutes ago, Lisaancelle said:

I feel both E2 and E3 would have been stronger with a little more texture exclusivity.

Speaking of E2 and E3 aesthetics, the way the textures are used is rather interesting and different from E1. I previously thought of Sandy Doom 1 maps texturing as of being amateurish, cheesy and garish to the point of preferring the Jaguar mapset retexturing made by American McGee. But in the last years it did grew on me in a nostalgic way. I now think that it's way more interesting than homogenized Jaguar Doom look. One Jaguar improvement I miss though is removing the ceilings in some rooms.

One more thing about Sandy E2 and E3 maps is that they have some weird things that make little sense from the gameplay point of view and don't always correspond with conventions established in E1, but you still remember them for how they add to the surreal atmosphere. Off the top of my head:

- inverted cross in e2m1 having damage floor

- a room with small platforms moving up and down in e2m3

- blue water being damage floor in e3m3

- a door in e3m4 that opens by stepping on a blue square

etc

E2 is mostly a Tom Hall episode actually. Most of its maps were nearly finished in alpha v0.5 before Hall resigned.

Anyway, in my honest, constructive and objective opinion, E3 is not really an okay episode, it's mid to bad. Specifically, E3M1 is just badly designed, E3M2 has ammo shortages, E3M3 is out of place as it was originally a Tom Hall tech base map, E3M4's end puzzle is a bit annoying the first few times you play through it, E3M5's teleporter puzzle is very annoying even after many playthroughs, E3M6's secret exit is a bit of a pain to get to if you're not good at Doom, E3M9 is cool the first time you play it but once you know its trick it becomes meh, E3M7 is very very confusing until you play it many times, and E3M8 is either too easy or sometimes I fail at BFG and the spider shreds me which is annoying.

But other than all these complains, it's playable. One thing I always liked about E3 is that its level names are really cool.

Both are nice and quality episodes. (for me) I do acknowledge that it may have some weird texturing and design, as well as trashy gameplay at times, but I think overall it's not as bad to play as people say it is. Far more visually unique than episode 1 along with more demons and guns. Probably the only episodes I play in a single sitting.

For me The Shores Of Hell and Inferno aren't necessarily "bad"... the word i'd use is "inconsistent". Both episodes are a mixed bag. Some maps like Refinery (E2M3), Mt. Erebus (E3M6), Pendemonium (E3M3) I absolutely love and then there's some like Containment Area (E2M2) and Limbo (E3M7) that I really don't like at all. I think the reason why Knee Deep In The Dead is so revered is because it's so consistently good from beginning to end. While not my favourite 9 maps of the original trilogy, it is 9 consistently GOOD maps in a row. The filler starts to creep in during The Shores Of Hell and Inferno. Thy Flesh Consumed suffers the same unfortunately for me, although I absolutely love E4M1 and E4M2... that 1/2 punch at the beginning of episode 4 hits harder than the opening 1/2 of any other episode.

So which one do I think is better between Shores and Inferno? Neither. I do prefer Inferno more hellish aesthetic though.

As for Sandy's Doom II maps, I can't remember off the top of my head which ones were his. So... that's my 2 bob's worth.

They are in the wrong order. IMO certain aspects of the game progression, especially certain features of certain maps, make much more sense with the original episode order.

E2 and E3, in my honest opinion, really do pale in comparison compared to E1. In retrospect, it was a very good idea that Romero's E1 was in fact E1 or Doom would've probably had a harder time impressing people right out of the gate, I feel. E2 is pretty mid, but E3 is just... I've nothing very nice to say about it. I can't think of a single E3 map that I enjoy, to be perfectly frank. Whenever I play through Doom 1, which is pretty rare now, I usually only play E1 and E4 because of how lackluster I find E2 and E3.

Level concepts, blow the first episode out of the water. Polish wise? It's a mess, all over the place. Some absolute indisputed bangers (no one complains about E2M2), some underrated gems (Sorry, Dean, E2M3 is good, just a messy aesthetic direction), and lots of barebones Sandy genius pitches that never got fleshed out. Overall too easy (except when its not.)

8 minutes ago, ApprihensivSoul said:

Some absolute indisputed bangers (no one complains about E2M2)

I do. Containment Area sucks and I stand by it.

I just reread your previous comment (which I hadn't before) and got a chuckle, because you group a map I've understood to be one of the most popular with one of the least. Which just goes to show how much of a mixed bag it is. (I also very much like Limbo, but on that one I'm an outlier. And I don't find the complaints invalid.)

E2 is my favourite OG Doom episode (e4 doesn't count, because it was released later).

E3's quality imo is depressed by a number of poorly designed levels like limbo, unholy cathedral (cool visuals tho), and dis.

Both are far better than Episode 1. Episode 1 is boring and mediocre - while Episodes 2 and 3 are way more about Hell, something that I much prefer compared to the droning techbases and sloppy STARTANs of Knee Deep in the Dead. I especially like E3M1 and E2M1.

E2 and E3 in my opinion provided more gameplay variety than just hunt keys in maze like area for 6 levels like most E1 maps are, even if those varieties are at uh... questionable quality. However, the maps in E1 are consistently good, which something that I don't think really fit with E2 and E3, considering the development of the two episodes.

I enjoyed both E2 and E3 than E1 even with all the bad level design it come with. I honestly think both episodes are more fun, memorable and not as boring E1 STAR base theme.

I like Shores of Hell. It's a bit uneven in quality but when the episode's good, it is really good and memorable. Containment Area and Halls of the Damned are masterpieces in their own right; the former has an amazing sense of scale and gloom all over it while the latter is as terrifying as Doom gets, with unpredictable ambushes, the maze of darkness and of course, the fake exit. The only 2 real duds from it would be Refinery (weird unfocused layout and theming) and Command Center, which feels like a bad imitation of an Episode 1 styled map. Fortress of Mystery is a total misfire, but it does make me laugh and is merely a tiny bump in the road that offers some stupid fun. The rest ranges from all right to very good.

Inferno, though... I don't like it at all. Most of the levels are butt ugly and are completely annoying to play. Hell Keep is the worst opener to an episode I have ever seen, with it thinking it's fun to pistol cacodemons and shotgun pinkies in a 64 units wide hallway. Unholy Cathedral's teleporter hub is one of the worst ideas to ever appear in a Doom map and makes the level needlessly confusing. Limbo is the penultimate map and yet its biggest adversary is the 10% damage blood everywhere as you get lost trying to solve the map's riddle. And finally, the fight against the Spider Mastermind is a total anticlimax on continuous runs and needlessly tedious on pistol starts. The only bright spots to me are: House of Pain and the seminal pain it administers to you and Mt. Erebus's open-ended layout. The rest is... okay I guess. But when you flat out dislike one half of the episode, you have a big problem with it.

Shores of Hell? More like Shores of a Shell..

Shores of Hell is a fun episode. I like most of its levels, and the theming is very consistent. I feel like it does a good job of exploring both the techbase and Hell themes while also introducing the new enemies in an appropriate manner.

Inferno is more of a mixed bag for me. There are some good maps, but others are a total dud. It starts off pretty weak, with E3M1 being an unfortunate combination of ugly and unfun to play. One need only look at the first door to see how poor the detailing is compared to the maps found in E1 and E2, and the gameplay isn't much better. You like pistoling Cacodemons, right?

E2 was always my favourite back in the day, I still love it but the theme has been done better since, E2 of DTWID and Nihility: Infinite Teeth being primo examples of this. 

All the other threads on this topic have only had dishonest opinions. Thank goodness we can finally speak our truth on the matter.

I always liked E2 overall, with a couple maps that don't do much for me. E2M4 is my favorite Doom 1 map, due in large part to the weird atmosphere. I dislike E2M2, it's in my bottom 3 due to the sheer chore of it. E2M5 is also kind of annoying due to the size and density, but the rest of the episode manages to work pretty well for me. The maps mostly offer a dungeon crawl style of gameplay with a lot of hazards and traps. It also has a lot darker mood than E1 which is mostly well lit and straightforward to navigate. Although the difficulty isn't that high, it has a bit of a survival and exploration emphasis which would have worked better if the mid tier monsters weren't actually way less threatening than hitscanners. Pinkies and cacos just aren't scary in most places, except a couple encounters where you get caught in tight corners like in E2M6. 

E3 is different visually but it tends to fall a bit flat in terms of gameplay. E3M2 is probably the main one I consider good, and M5 and 7 are pretty much flaming garbage to play. It's pretty experimental and has a few memorable sections, but it doesn't really make use of the expanded weapons, monsters, or items that well. Plus it seems like the texturing and detailing didn't work as well for the hell levels compared to the techbase ones. Yes there are suitable decorations, but the aesthetics didn't always come together.

I'll touch on E4, to point out that it had some of the best maps of Doom 1 but a handful of the biggest filler maps you could slap together. I'll probably put it in the same category as E3 but E4M2 and M6 are better than anything in Inferno. 

Overall though, I think Sandy always deserves more respect. He had at least as many good maps as Romero, including some of my favorites. He had to produce more than anyone else and so ended up with some that either didn't work or weren't that memorable. E4's weaker efforts also tend to boost the middle episodes by comparison. And he also contributed a ton of the most important Doom 2 maps, both in terms of quality and influence.

E1 might be the most iconic and consistent episode in terms of quality, but there are a lot of high spots in the later episodes and maps that simply feel like a much different game. Doom would have been totally diminished if it were all well lit techbases. And as a casual player, E2 and 3 had a feel of being more gritty and unfamiliar and imposing back then. Being a kid that could actually die to a pinky makes a big difference. 

When I first started playing Doom, I didn't care for either. I thought the texturing was ugly. These days I like episode 2, even though it uses some of the uglier texture combinations of Doom. But I still have trouble enjoying episode 3 after E3M4. It just doesn't work for me.

To add, I don't mind at all Sandy as a level designer, but I think he was simply not quite there yet in Doom. He needed time to mature, and he did so with Quake - his levels there are stellar, E4M8 being an example. 

6 hours ago, RjY said:

They are in the wrong order. IMO certain aspects of the game progression, especially certain features of certain maps, make much more sense with the original episode order.

What do you mean? Was the episode order meant to be different from what it ended up as?

I don't dislike them. I mean, E3 especially is really unpolished and has unholy cathedral and mt.erebus, but still in E2 exist containment area and halls of the dammed, and the mapping quality is not that bad as a whole. Their visual motifs are also a thing I like a bunch and make a good job differentiate themselves from E1, after all each one feature their own set of textures.

In my opinion, E1 was the best, followed behind by E2 and with E3 way back in the distance.

Shores of Hell was OK. It wasn't great, it was mediocre. Inferno, on the other hand, I can't stand. I don't like any of the levels there and although I understand that people love Mt Erebus, it's my worst map in the game.

This is why for my 9-map wad (shameless plug) I wanted to have a go at all three themes with three maps each. I do have to say that mapping for a Hell environment was very difficult for me with the texture selection and that was with Doom 2 textures plus additional resources.

When I die, I want to go to Heaven and check out that map set. It can't be any worse than Inferno.

I honestly consider inferno probably the worst episode of doom because it has LIMBO, Warrens and DIS (Mt erebus would also come in here but it doesn't seem that bad to me except for the exit)
2 has its weak maps like E2M3, E2M4 and E2M9, the latter there are people who say is important in doom but the combats are better presented in other parts of the game or even in DOOM2.

I liked episode 2 more as time went on, but episode 3 is bad, it's like "Lobo suelto"for  patricio rey y sus redonditos de ricota  The first 5 songs are terrible, then there are ups and downs at times.Here it is the same, the first 4 levels are quite good but from there it declines

E2 - overrated, some neat bits and pieces but they're like looking for delicious peanuts in a hill of elephant shit.
E3 - underrated masterpiece, everyone's wrong about both Unholy Cathedral and Limbo.

OP asked for honest, I gave honest. What I will not give a shit about is being @'ed about this. I know you disagree, I'm very aware how The Accepted Opinions™ differ from my own and don't need the 9000th reminder.

11 hours ago, Orchid87 said:

I see many people cite KDiTD as their favorite Doom episode and the reason they prefer Doom over Doom 2 (in my own opinion, limited monster and weapon selection really brings it down) but somehow, Shores and Inferno are usually omitted from the discussion.

I personally don't prefer Doom over Doom 2, but I think a reason why KDiTD stands out above Shores and Inferno is the choice of only including fodder, low tier monsters, and a suitable weapon selection for killing them. Most of the monsters can be killed with 1-2 shotgun shots (sometimes you even kill many of them at once), and even the pinkies only take 3-4. Plus, each monster seems to have its own unique role. All this makes the gameplay fast paced and satisfying.

Episodes 2 and 3 tried to add more variety, but left a lot to be desired. There are 3 new monsters (not including bosses):

• The lost soul is a completely new thing with its own gimmicks, and it's okay for what it is.
• The baron, a boss from E1, becomes a regular enemy. It's just a lame big version of the imp, but atleast it can present some danger in tight spaces for being so tanky and having high damage attacks.
• The cacodemon... well, it's kinda pathetic. It can be chainsawed to death. Or you can use a chaingun and watch it be unable to retaliate. Or something else. Either way, it takes too damn long to die!

The new weapons don't really help much. The BFG is best for killing big bosses or hordes of monsters, and the plasma rifle feels like a more powerful but less versatile chaingun. I just end up using the E1 weapons most of the time.

So overall E2 and E3 feel more grindy, and not really more difficult than E1.

Doom 2 does a great job at improving this with several new and interesting monsters, and the super shotgun which is a good replacement for the shotgun when more firepower is needed.

E1 will always have a special place in my heart, same as with many other people. I played the hell out of the shareware episode way back in the day and it was heads and shoulders above any game that came before it, even in the 320x240 resolution of the day. It also has really good balance overall - not perfect, but good. Nostalgia is strong here, but I do replay the entirety of E1-E4 every year or two and E1 is still strong in my opinion.

E2 and E3 do not measure up to the game play and balance of E1. They are not horrible, but very... meh. Visually, they are mostly a step down, although I try not to judge the OG maps in either game too harshly given the primitive nature of id's map editor and the hardware of the day. Still, I think some more textures and slightly more detail in some areas would help: essentially, the levels needed a little more time in the oven before release. Balance can be a bit all over the place, with it mostly being too easy but also boring at times. Baron is the only "tough" monster, but generally the player does not have the right weapons and ammo to take them out efficiently.

In general, Doom 1 will always be weaker than its sequel due to the lack of the SSG and many mid-tier enemies. Its bestiary is heavy on hit-scanners and the Baron is a bullet sponge, leaving very few interesting monster choices. This is not specific to E2 or E3: this is my opinion of Doom 1's selection of weapons, monsters, and textures. E2 and E3 have to live with those limitations. This means, in my opinion, that they start from a position of weakness when compared to anything built on Doom 2. E1 can get away with this because other than E1M8, it has no tough monsters: it is full of fodder which matches weapon availability and it has a strong, cohesive theme.

They're still pretty resonant to me.  I'm sure it helps that they were already imprinted on my developing brain long before I had the higher vantage point from which to really criticize them, but they were basically imprinted at around the same time as Doom 2's levels and I think most of Doom 2 is way more garbage than any of Doom 1.  If I load up and run around E2M4, I can think to myself, "Ah yes, this is the Deimos Lab, the texturing is a bit hit-and-miss but I'm buying it" whereas if I'm playing MAP12, I'm going "You're trying to tell me that this is a factory?  FOH."

I'd have to expend way more mental watts than my tired brain currently has if I wanted to get into a proper disquisition on why this might be, but I suspect a lot of it is Tom Hall's influence.  In general it seems like if Tom Hall did any substantial work on a map, it ended up guaranteed to be good and memorable at least by IWAD standards, whereas if Sandy did it from scratch it instantly becomes much more hit-and-miss (and some of the misses are really bad).

2 hours ago, Foodles said:

What do you mean? Was the episode order meant to be different from what it ended up as?

If I remember my Doom bible correctly, originally the first Hell episode was going to be E2 (entered directly from the Tei Tenga [Phobos] anomaly) and then you'd emerge from it into the corrupted Deimos [or whatever they called it] base for E3.  I'm assuming that's what's meant.