maps you find too hard/unfair to revisit

2 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

Most maps that I find rage inducing and 'never play again' tend to be, suprise surprise, IoS maps.

ohh.. i just dont complete any packs with an IoS map.. even Plutonia and TNT's are just stupid, and I rate Plutonia quite highly overall. Me wonder why MtPain27 always complains about Dead Simple clones which can be quite fun, but doesn't have the same scorn for IoS stuff

48 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

this seems to be the case with so many 90s wads, just so obtuse with obscure progression, the idea i guess was the longer you spent trying to figure them out the "better" they were?

edit: i wanna do some stuff like Icarus Alien Vanguard or Memento Mori but i fear i'll just end up pulling my hair out going "where.. the frick.. do.. i.. GOO?!?"

well, a lot of 90s wads were heavily inspired by dungeon crawlers and adventure games, and as such required heavy amounts of exploration, looking for secret walls, that sorta stuff. it's not necessarily what you'd call good design nowadays, but it's what was popular in the late 80s and early 90s in terms of pc games. as the 90s went on and the community matured however, you did start to see less of that.

with that being said, what might help a little is designing maps of your own and learning a bit of game design and possibly playing some more exploratory maps. i feel like that helped me with navigation quite a bit both in game and irl, because i used to be horrible at it.

also, please stop posting several times in a row to respond to multiple people. you can quote more than one person at a time in a single post.

Just now, roadworx said:

also, please stop posting several times in a row to respond to multiple people. you can quote more than one person at a time in a single post.

sorry i'm dumb and gay

mmm I have trouble revisiting any map with tough area control combat where there's nothing to do besides do the first encounter, then the next, in a linear fashion. I feel like if I was good at that sort of challenge then the part of doom I really appreciate would somehow be obliterated

For what it’s worth, I’m not a fan of ”Death”, either. Whispering Winds was a ballbusting experience (or Poison Ivy II in Speed of Doom), but those are maps I definitely want to revisit. Whenever I’ll replay (and that’s indeed when, not if) Scythe II, it’s the first secret map and MAP26 I’m not looking forward, as well as MAP29, which may be my least favourite of the bunch, even if on the surface it’s much more mild-mannered, but still.

5 minutes ago, RHhe82 said:

For what it’s worth, I’m not a fan of ”Death”, either. Whispering Winds was a ballbusting experience (or Poison Ivy II in Speed of Doom), but those are maps I definitely want to revisit. Whenever I’ll replay (and that’s indeed when, not if) Scythe II, it’s the first secret map and MAP26 I’m not looking forward, as well as MAP29, which may be my least favourite of the bunch, even if on the surface it’s much more mild-mannered, but still.

first secret map is actually super easy to trivialize i realized after a few tries (if youre not going for that secret exit), you can just circle strafe the AI for the most part, its how they use the Evil Marines in some latter parts that are excruciating.. like Map23, they're used in the worst way... on the other hand, I kind of love them in map 24 and 25 theyre actually used in a fun way in those levels!

edit: that secret exit in map31 is BS though.. im so glad it isnt required for a UV-Max but imagine you're playing continuous and have to deal with that nonsense.

Yeah funnily enough despite their infamy the Evil Marine wasn't really the problem for me, it was the gd Afrit because for some reason they have almost as much health as a Cyberdemon. Way, way too tanky, so it makes fighting that first one in Death particularly excruciating.

1 minute ago, Lila Feuer said:

Yeah funnily enough despite their infamy the Evil Marine wasn't really the problem for me, it was the gd Afrit because for some reason they have almost as much health as a Cyberdemon. Way, way too tanky, so it makes fighting that first one in Death particularly excruciating.

Erik Alm made me actually like them, the only truly nonsense encounter i've had so far though is in Map24 there's the big room with chaingunners and evil marines and its like.. cmon man, both getting hitscanned and these angry weasels running around shaving your balls with a plasma razer.. I do actually wanna see similar speedy bois in some doom stuff, its more refreshing than "big tank that has a tough projectile pattern" lots of other maps do!

3 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Yeah funnily enough despite their infamy the Evil Marine wasn't really the problem for me, it was the gd Afrit because for some reason they have almost as much health as a Cyberdemon. Way, way too tanky, so it makes fighting that first one in Death particularly excruciating.

I detest the evil marines, but granted: Afrits are way too tanky. Otherwise fine enemy, looks good too, but shooting at them makes you wonder if you’re even hitting them. Resurgence made both these enemies better, particularly afrits.

Dimensions map 3 still scares the absolute shit out of me. I played it just once on UV while arbitrarily limiting my saves (no saving mid-fight), and it took something like 8 hours to finish it that way, secret fight included. Bit off more than I could chew, clearly.

There are a few but spread across time and WADs enough that I don't really remember them outside of a sort of mental screenshot without metadata attached...

I usually take the maps/WADs I consider excessively rough and use them as playgrounds for weapon mods or TCs that make regular gameplay a tad too easy. Sunder is far different an experience when you're playing through it with SWWMGZ (although, the lack of a tracer spawning weapon like the BFG in that arsenal does make some fights strangely harder, unless the mod's added that since I last pulled it).

To explicitly answer the question with a map I consider to be unfair and cruel... Okuplok, because even with all the advantages of GZDoom and OP weapon mods, there are segments where your only real recourse is luck or Doom God tier skills. It STILL took me hours to beat, with Russian Overkill...

1 minute ago, Zerofuchs said:

To explicitly answer the question with a map I consider to be unfair and cruel... Okuplok, because even with all the advantages of GZDoom and OP weapon mods, there are segments where your only real recourse is luck or Doom God tier skills. It STILL took me hours to beat, with Russian Overkill...

tbf no one has ever done single segment of Okuplok except Coincident's ITYTD single segment. One day someone will though, and that person will truly be crowned capital G God of Doom..

God of Doom also just sounds like such a cool phrase so someone UV-Max okuplok and earn it

2 hours ago, Zerofuchs said:

Doom God tier skills.

There's no God in Doom community, the last stage of ascension is Zero-Master.

5 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

HR2 on the other hand, wew, although I think that one suffers more from artificially inflated difficulty more often than not due to arch-vile vomit leading to a regiment's worth of resurrections on some maps, which can sometime cause you to actually run out of ammo...in a slaughter map. This was also during continuous play too, so I can't even imagine how comically awful pistol starting those might be.

Most of the levels are littered in ammo, so I find this surprising.

4 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Most of the levels are littered in ammo, so I find this surprising.

Arch-Vile vomits can easily get out of hand if you aren't paying attention to them. I recall Demonic Hordes from AV becoming a nightmare for me since I left two of them unattended in the courtyard. I came back from the church area to see that the gates were now blocked by an army of revenants and hell nobles.

If only two arch-viles can make your life a living hell like that, a vomit left unattended will... unsurprisingly dispose of your ammo surplus.

Doom 2 map 10.

If you don't know well the entire map and secrets, because of the lack of ammo.

Speed Of Doom first map.  I couldn't figure out where to go because I was getting killed everywhere I went.  Is it possible with keyboard only??  I never wen't back to it.. 

6 hours ago, fruity lerlups said:

Me wonder why MtPain27 always complains about Dead Simple clones which can be quite fun, but doesn't have the same scorn for IoS stuff

Did we… did we watch the same videos? He only complains about Dead Simple clones that are carbon copies of the original, if at all. Meanwhile, he gave the original IoS an F and literally says the best types of Icon of Sin maps are the “quick and painless” ones.

I played through Profane Promiseland (with saves, christ I'm not THAT good), and got all the way to the 2nd to last fight. 

At which point my laptop was reduced to a smoldering wreck, achieving about 2 fps and rendering the entire exercise annoyingly futile. 

Shame, as I was having a great time up till that point. Can highly recommend, provided your PC can handle about 2000 on screen monsters at a time. However, I certainly won't be wasting another week of my life any time soon for no pay off. 

2 hours ago, TVdinnermasterchef said:

I played through Profane Promiseland (with saves, christ I'm not THAT good), and got all the way to the 2nd to last fight. 

 

At which point my laptop was reduced to a smoldering wreck, achieving about 2 fps and rendering the entire exercise annoyingly futile. 

 

Shame, as I was having a great time up till that point. Can highly recommend, provided your PC can handle about 2000 on screen monsters at a time. However, I certainly won't be wasting another week of my life any time soon for no pay off. 

Sometimes, excess is just excess. I couldn't believe the map broke on decino initially because the engine just couldn't handle it anymore even with the restrictions lifted. A lot of those fights earlier on I was like "yeah I could do that." But if the eventual showstopper is literally unplayable then yeah there's other maps to play that won't do this. Sunlust's finale on God Machine worked alright for me, but that map didn't have exactly 100k monsters on it.

Weirdly I don't often play custom Megawads, mostly just singular custom levels. I've been meaning to get around to playing a few. Last one I remember finishing was "Doom 2 In City Only" which I had a genuine blast with.

That being said I don't have a map that I wouldn't want to revisit from any of the official Doom maps. Hell I don't even mind the city levels in Doom 2 anymore, they barely even feel like the chore most make them out to be.

22 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Sometimes, excess is just excess. I couldn't believe the map broke on decino initially because the engine just couldn't handle it anymore even with the restrictions lifted. A lot of those fights earlier on I was like "yeah I could do that." But if the eventual showstopper is literally unplayable then yeah there's other maps to play that won't do this. Sunlust's finale on God Machine worked alright for me, but that map didn't have exactly 100k monsters on it.

No, it's not excessive really, it's only 42,000 enemies... 

When a 31 year old game requires the highest end computer on the market to run it, something has gone very, very wrong. 

Swift Death. If you think Scythe 1 is too mean, SD puts it to shame. I might not really replay the maps I beat, but I had a lot of fun trying desperately to carve a way through. Most of them are fairly short and really feel satisfying to finally beat.

Also Speed of Doom is generally considered this towering masterpiece but I find most of the maps super annoying and not fun to play. I think a large part of it is probably that I don't like playing with saves and it's also incredibly unfriendly to playing it blind. A decent amount of the maps are reasonable but there are difficulty spikes scattered throughout IMO. I associate it with Alien Vendetta and I think Scythe 1+2 as well as Plutonia 2 all hold up a lot better. I had more fun with Sunlust even though I struggled through it and had to work at it. Perhaps I'd enjoy SoD better at a later time when my skills are well beyond its challenge, turning it into a light and fluffy experience by comparison.

Whitemare 2 map 20 was an absolute mess I don't know how I beat this map saveless, it really took me alot of attempts 
it's really one of the hardest maps I have ever played, this map has strange and confusing progression
I really want people to check this map to know what I'm talkin about 

Doomed By Hour 2 map 31 you would think it's beatable in the first place..
Until you reach the final fight, it's really really really tough, the final fight of this one is really tough

Scythe 2 map 23 even after practicing this map, it took me alot of attempts to beat it and this map made me hold scythe 2 for another time

Community Chest 1 Map 6  that map was so bad and tough and unbalanced at all, you don't know where you suppose to do in this map.

this map actually made me not finishing community chest 1

1000 lines 3 map 32 was way way too hard for me, if I'm not mistaking it. It was fun to finish it at once, but at end I was overwhelmed lol Great map though and it fits well into the wad.

@fruity lerlups Easily Titan Manor from the Master Levels.  I love Puzzle Maps but when the secrets literally make no sense it is an absolute slog of trying to remember where everything is.  I was dreading when I saw the updated Playstation Final Doom CE WAD i've been working through included new renditions of ALL of the Master Levels and would have to face this again.  Updated graphics or not this map just does not get any more forgiving.  If you've not had the unfortunate chance to play it.  Here's the footage and even this is after being lost an obscene amount of time not shown on video x_x

@LegendaryEevee Yeah Titan Manor is uh...yeah. I both love and hate Jim Flynn maps. They're intricate. But so is a knotted up ball of wires.

Just now, Deadwing said:

1000 lines 3 map 32 was way way too hard for me, if I'm not mistaking it. It was fun to finish it at once, but at end I was overwhelmed lol Great map though and it fits well into the wad.

yeah I also do remember this map, I believe it was made by roofi and it was a tight slaughter, yeah that map wasn't easy.
It took me amount of attempts to beat

A lot of maps feel really unfair since I've started practicing auto save only runs :p . It's a shame because a lot of maps I find unfair are really really beautiful. What makes it really unfair to me is  maps that do not know how to reward players after a difficult fight. Meaning that they won't give you any significant ammo or health after beating a hard / slaughter like encounter and you'll be wrecked in the next slaughter like encounter...

I miss wads that had more difficulty progression, meaning you didn't get frustrated from map01. I know there are still some out there but they're getting harder to find. I should probably allow myself to quicksave in these maps in order to enjoy them again.

 

7 hours ago, JoeyKelastiof said:

A lot of maps feel really unfair since I've started practicing auto save only runs :p . It's a shame because a lot of maps I find unfair are really really beautiful. What makes it really unfair to me is  maps that do not know how to reward players after a difficult fight. Meaning that they won't give you any significant ammo or health after beating a hard / slaughter like encounter and you'll be wrecked in the next slaughter like encounter...

I miss wads that had more difficulty progression, meaning you didn't get frustrated from map01. I know there are still some out there but they're getting harder to find. I should probably allow myself to quicksave in these maps in order to enjoy them again.

 

Give examples.