I Think Doom's Edge Went the Wrong Way

To the OP:
Ahoy did an excellent video on the history of classic Doom.
IIRC one thing it points out (been a while since I watched this) is the era it was made (the 90s) being a time of manly action heroes & such movies that were obvious inspiration.
 

YES! You said it yourself. 

On 2/15/2024 at 6:03 AM, Astar said:

DOOM 2016 and Doom Eternal allowed kids all over the world to roleplay a Doomslayer and imagine how they (as a Doomslayer, of course) kill furries and women :3

How do you think creative director for both 2016 and eternal Hugo Martin feels about this? 

7 hours ago, DoomTheDarkAgesfan07 said:

How do you think creative director for both 2016 and eternal Hugo Martin feels about this?  

I don't think he gives a shit.

Originally, when Doom 2016 came out and was on everyone's tongue, I was intrigued. I listened to the OST on YouTube, watched some gameplay videos, and thought "nice, maybe I should give this a try someday". That was before I played any first-person shooter, but by that time I've known about the OG Doom games from the 90s and their impact on popular culture. I never ended up playing 2016 or Eternal, but after I finally experienced classic Doom and it's modding scene, I realized there wasn't anything better the new games could offer me. Classic Doom's power lies in it's simplicity and modability: the gameplay is timeless, satisfying, and straight to the point, and if you feel that something could be improved, you can find the mod somebody else made that does exactly that, or look for tutorials and make it yourself. It's an infinite source of entertainment. There's no need for state-of-the-art graphics, realism, cutscenes, bloated lore or deep messages. Doom knows that it's fun, and you'll know too when you play it (and if you don't, well, your loss).

The thing about the way NuDoom games are presented that turns off a lot of people (including me) is how hard they're trying to prove that they're totally fucking radihardcore and so is MC, who's now a Gary Stu straight outta some 6th-grader's fanfiction. Tryhardness is a very uncool trait to have, because it's a sign of insecurity. I've been following discourse surrounding NuDoom for some time, and noticed plenty of mentions of ludonarrative dissonance. That's natural. If Doom Slayer really was the almighty unstoppable badass he was built up as, the game would be very short and boring - he'd just Thanos-snap demons and Hell out of existence or whatever. OG Doomguy is a much more believable and relatable protagonist, even if he runs at 80 km/h and can survive a direct hit from a rocket. But it's not like I have issues with power fantasy on principle - in fact, I like Doom mods that give you an even more ass-kicking arsenal and some haxed power-ups on top, in particular - Russian Overkill and Guncaster. Both do OP protagonists miles better than NuDoom. The former doesn't take itself one bit seriously: it's player classes are exagerrated walking stereotypes, and the weapons could easily kill you along with the demons. Humor is the focus here, not getting to feel like the scariest monster around. The latter's OP factor is significantly toned down, Cygnis is a genuine badass without looking like an edgy tryhard, and the cool blends with the funny in an organic way because neither is overdone. Hell, even Brutal Doom, as edgy as it is, feels more tasteful, because it retains the grittiness and no-frills attitude of the originals.

I strongly agree with people who say that "gods and demons" lore doesn't suit Doom, and I agree even more strongly with people who say that DE devs should've decided whether they wanted to make an ultrabr00tal edgefest or a goofy slapstick parody. That last one makes watching/reading anything from the game second-hand embarassing. It's hard to believe that adult people could come up with this. The writers strayed far from the principles of "less is more" and "show, don't tell" that made the original games great, tossed moderation out of the window, and ended up with an infantilistic mess of a story only furry-hating teenage edgelords could find appealing.

12 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

I broke it up in paragraphs, don't know why my post ended up looking like this.

Edgy is a term I would apply to games like Duke 3D and shadow warrior.

Doom was offensive to some for being gory and having depictions of hell, but it never seemed to me like it was trying extra hard to be offensive. The gore is not gore porn if that makes sense. The main character keeps his mouth shut. There are no sexy demons. Those are the kind of additions that would make me want to call it edgy.

2 hours ago, magicsofa said:

The main character keeps his mouth shut. There are no sexy demons. Those are the kind of additions that would make me want to call it edgy.

27 minutes ago, Stupid Bunny said:

 

Oh, someone else has a much more extreme opinion than I do. Your point?

Haha no sorry I wasn’t disagreeing with you and in fact think everything you said was true. It just reminded me of this and I probably incorrectly thought it would be funny to dredge it up and in any case didn’t really make the connection necessary to land it. My bad.

OH, lol, in fact I did laugh...

Ok, so a legitimate question:

For those of you who dislike how Doom’s story turned out (or more specifically, how it turned into “Doomhammer 40K”), what would you do to change Doom’s story (ranging from plot elements to the story’s tone)?

(No, these do not count as answers:

-“just retcon everything starting with Doom 2016 and go back to the drawing board”

-“just force the IP back into stasis”

-“just make a new IP inspired by Doom”

-“just make a new Quake instead”)

Or more succinctly, how did you want a more modern take on Doom to go (modern meaning “made within the past decade”)?

Let’s just say I’m… collecting feedback.

NuDoom became too badass and edgy that it got kinda boring. I'm honestly getting really fatigued by the Mick Gordon style of NuDoom tracks nowadays that i'm really hoping the new composer's who did the dlc's (if they are even reprising their role) branch out more and do something  different, instead of trying to mimic Mick's style. Hearing bfg division and TOTTFIY just don't hit the same anymore. Mick's style in doom music has gotten pretty stale for me imo. 

As someone who liked Doom '16 but disliked Eternal, I'd have made Doom 5 be much more like '16 in terms of both tone and gameplay. Drop Urdak, the Makyrs, and everything to do with the Night Sentinels entirely, set it mostly on Earth and Hell like Doom 2 was (but with the same trip to Mars as Eternal), and make Samuel Hayden the main villain.

its a flanderization of the memeified cultural zeitgeist surrounding doom resulting from the comics, brootal d00m, that 4chan post, etc. Funnily enough Doom 2016 does it well because its sorta adrenaline horror, the subtle hints that you've been through this before, the highly surgical and "get out of my f&$*ing face* nature of how you deal with enemies almost like its a job you're sick of, and the existential horror of basically being trapped to constantly war against the forces of hell that is combined with the subtle hints at this being a continuation of where 64 left off make for a genuinely cool atmosphere where there is this meta "looks like i'm on the job again, rip and tear until its done", it still feels like you but with this meta commentary of "looks like the demon killing never stops ay?", this is also why the cyberdemon fight works well in 2016 tonally because its like "yeah you think you can defeat me again? try me". 2016's tone is a reflection of its mechanics and the cultural context of Doom as an embodiment of pure mechanical prowess, and thus the doomslayer represents surgically precise demon slaying. When those codex and testaments talk about the slayer, they're talking about doom as a game, this exercise in brutally efficient demon killing. The threadbare environmental storytelling was also really powerful, and the doomguy's reactions to it reflect us, "i get it, the UAC messed up again, and i've got to clean it up, get out of my way".

This is embodied in a single character design choice, 2016 doomslayer doesn't have his guns out, eternal slayer does, because 2016 slayer and you have sorta become professionals, FPS have been around a lot, Doom is 23 years old at the point of release, no frills necessary, his actions speak louder than his costume. In Eternal he becomes the DOOM SLAYER, he's not a meta commentary on playing an action fps, he's flanderized. He has all kinds of frills, he shows off his guns, his armor is elaborate and he's got a BIG SWORD, he, not you, he wants to rip the demons guts. You see cutscenes of him being all cool and badass. Also the bad lore writing. Idunno, I liked 2016's doomguy, the self awareness of 2016 is what makes it so tonally perfect, you can't make it "survival horror" because you're insanely powerful, but you can make it "adrenaline horror" by making it like "they.. don't.. stop.. coming..", Eternal's power fantasy tone doesn't ever convey the existential horror of being metaphysically trapped in eternal war with hell the way 2016 does.

8 hours ago, Man of Doom said:

Ok, so a legitimate question:

 

 

For those of you who dislike how Doom’s story turned out (or more specifically, how it turned into “Doomhammer 40K”), what would you do to change Doom’s story (ranging from plot elements to the story’s tone)?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I know I technically posted a similar question in the Doom Eternal subforum, but this is specifically more for “how would you have changed the direction the franchise went in, starting with while Doom 4/2016 was still in development?”

 

1. The tone is despair and indignancy at the fact the demons never stop coming and you have been appointed as the champion of the heavens to stop them, like 2016, but now its earth, again, and you've just gotta grit your teeth and get the job done, and at the end of the day, just prepare for it all over again, because its eternal.
2. Hell is hell, like a dualistic cosmology of an evil place where souls go to get tortured, demons live and Satan rules and all it wants is to rule everything and bring pain and anguish because its hell, and now earth is going to become part of it.
3. No plot with the maykrs and sentinels and deag weiner or whatever, just the uac worships demons and opens a portal to hell, now you gotta stop it and kill whatever demon sumnabrinches you need.
4. The lore is just, there's a hell, and lots of alien civilizations have been fighting it, like those sentinel dudes and martians, its evil and wants souls. There are angels, and heaven, and they are trying to protect the cosmos from hell, no conspiracy or nothing, they just have picked you as their dude cause you got this far, deal with it, they at least help you with cool angel tech to kill emonds and not afraid of anything.

Probably my favorite argument about Doom Eternal from me can be summarized as such: What did Doom Eternal bring that Duke Nukem 3D did not? 

My own assertion is "very little was added" primarily because my take is slightly trolly, but has enough shoe-string line of evidence that duct tapes the comparison with comedic standing. 

I don't dislike Doom Eternal by any stretch, but I'm also coming from the background that Dark Watch already did everything that both Doom Eternal and Doom 2016 did complete with Gore Nest mechanics, aka kill the evil summoning tree. To be fair, Doom 2016 was not a caricature of Doom, and Doom Eternal constantly made fun of itself. You can only have so much legitimate edge before the blade becomes toothpick thin. So Doom Eternal path of presentation became a story of Adrenaline Fueled Slaughter Combat and completely dispensed with the Horror Motif used in the prior titles.

In order for a New Doom title to retake the Horror genre into itself, you would end up getting a product more similar to Doom 3. Frankly, I don't foresee Doom returning to Horror and will continue trudging the path of epic slaughter combat; which funnily enough is the same path Classic Doom mapping has adopted over the decades. It is a moan that Doom's future is using the combat model of Serious Sam, but it sure sells well and that's the main reason that Doom being a profitable IP will keep it running into the future. By Comparison, in order to keep the Halo IP fresh they started introducing Open world mechanics.

One concept I could urge Bethesda, or whichever team is working on Doom games, to do is build proof of concept mods in GZDoom. If that is already being used then awesome. We've  been able to replicate a vast chunk of game mechanics from many different titles. Its not necessarily the most productive idea from some angles of perspective, but this tactic is used by modders just to replicate modern mechanics in a far less advanced environment. BY contrast, Bethesda could do another "Final Doom" type strategy of releasing a Boomer Shooter as a funny way to make a quick buck from the market of indie and retro gamers in the same vein as Ion Fury.