Liminal spaces in doom, what even is it ?

3 hours ago, WASFDDDDD said:

This thread legit inspired me to make a liminal map lol

 

I can send you the WAD if you want

We all want it ! That screenshot looks very enticing !

In retrospect, I didn't expect it would go as far as inspiring someone to make a liminal map when I first started this thread lol

1 hour ago, rafael2100 said:

We all want it ! That screenshot looks very enticing !

In retrospect, I didn't expect it would go as far as inspiring someone to make a liminal map when I first started this thread lol

It's very simple. Few rooms large, no exit, and the map just goes in a giant circle

If I feel like it I'll expand it into a mapset with different themed spaces and switch puzzles or smth, idk

Use GZDoom to run this WAD. That's the engine I tested it with, and I doubt any other would work

Sladspace.zip

1 hour ago, WASFDDDDD said:

It's very simple. Few rooms large, no exit, and the map just goes in a giant circle

If I feel like it I'll expand it into a mapset with different themed spaces and switch puzzles or smth, idk

 

 

Use GZDoom to run this WAD. That's the engine I tested it with, and I doubt any other would work

Sladspace.zip

Pretty straight forward map but pretty cool, some advice I could give to enhance the atmosphere :

- You could maybe tone down a little bit the ambient noises, they're a little intrusive, I would probably replace it with this track in that website :

https://ultrakill.wiki.gg/wiki/Soundtrack

- You could also use more 3D floors, they go a long way into making the player feel insecure, you could also use doomcute in places where it doesn't make sense, the couch in that beige area is a very good example.

You know, I think I could use this map for my community project, my idea was that when you first start the wad, you are introduced in a somewhat normal area, and it plays out like most wads would, but you just feel that something is off, and the more you play, the more it absurdifies, until you are led to the poolrooms.

I'm not forcing you into continuing this map, but if you have time to kill and not much else to do, then you are more than welcome to expand this wad, I think it's a pretty cool map :)

17 minutes ago, rafael2100 said:

Pretty straight forward map but pretty cool, some advice I could give to enhance the atmosphere :

- You could maybe tone down a little bit the ambient noises, they're a little intrusive, I would probably replace it with this track in that website :

 

https://ultrakill.wiki.gg/wiki/Soundtrack

  Reveal hidden contents

- You could also use more 3D floors, they go a long way into making the player feel insecure, you could also use doomcute in places where it doesn't make sense, the couch in that beige area is a very good example.

 

You know, I think I could use this map for my community project, my idea was that when you first start the wad, you are introduced in a somewhat normal area, and it plays out like most wads would, but you just feel that something is off, and the more you play, the more it absurdifies, until you are led to the poolrooms.

I'm not forcing you into continuing this map, but if you have time to kill and not much else to do, then you are more than welcome to expand this wad, I think it's a pretty cool map :)

 

I'm done working on this map and I wanna move on to something else. If I ever make that liminal mapset I'll make a new Sladspace map, and I can consider your suggestions then

As for your mapset; I don't want you to put this map in. Sladspace is hellish, dingy, and thoroughly hostile; all things the Poolrooms are not. Plus, it's a different thing, and I would rather it not get absorbed into the Poolrooms lore

1 hour ago, WASFDDDDD said:

I'm done working on this map and I wanna move on to something else. If I ever make that liminal mapset I'll make a new Sladspace map, and I can consider your suggestions then

 

As for your mapset; I don't want you to put this map in. Sladspace is hellish, dingy, and thoroughly hostile; all things the Poolrooms are not. Plus, it's a different thing, and I would rather it not get absorbed into the Poolrooms lore

The thing is, combining the beginning area, that being Sladspace and the poolrooms which in theory you access by falling through a hidden hole, it creates this odd contrast, when you leave Sladspace, instead of the "hellish, dingy and thoroughly hostile" map, you are introduced to a brightful and paradise-like pool, it gives the player a false sense of security, because they'll think they have escaped the worst.

Of course I will expand and re-imagine some areas, since there is still room for improvement. Though if you want, instead you focus on the new version of sladspace you mentionned and spare me the trouble of reworking your map, but as I already said, i'm not forcing you to do it

7 hours ago, rafael2100 said:

The thing is, combining the beginning area, that being Sladspace and the poolrooms which in theory you access by falling through a hidden hole, it creates this odd contrast, when you leave Sladspace, instead of the "hellish, dingy and thoroughly hostile" map, you are introduced to a brightful and paradise-like pool, it gives the player a false sense of security, because they'll think they have escaped the worst.

 

Of course I will expand and re-imagine some areas, since there is still room for improvement. Though if you want, instead you focus on the new version of sladspace you mentionned and spare me the trouble of reworking your map, but as I already said, i'm not forcing you to do it

Well, if you've made up your mind on including this map, then I'm not going to stop you

In accordance with Sladspace's Creative Commons license, you will include this text file: Sladspace License Disclaimer.zip in any place you post your mapset. Make sure to replace "[map number goes here]" with whatever map number you assign to your version of Sladspace. I'll post the original WAD somewhere soon, and you can add a link to it after the disclaimer. That should be enough to follow the terms of the license

2 minutes ago, WASFDDDDD said:

Well, if you've made up your mind on including this map, then I'm not going to stop you

 

In accordance with Sladspace's Creative Commons license, you will include this text file: Sladspace License Disclaimer.zip in any place you post your mapset. Make sure to replace "[map number goes here]" with whatever map number you assign to your version of Sladspace. I'll post the original WAD somewhere soon, and you can add a link to it after the disclaimer. That should be enough to follow the terms of the license

Sure thing ! I'll probably add it in SLADE when i'm at that part of the process

On 5/25/2024 at 12:58 PM, rafael2100 said:

Sure thing ! I'll probably add it in SLADE when i'm at that part of the process

It's been posted: https://www.moddb.com/games/doom/addons/sladspace

Question for OP, how exactly do you do the subtle lighting for your liminal pool rooms as seen in the first set of screenshots you posted in the opening thread? I tried my hand at making my own liminal space pool room, but the lighting isn't as soft as yours.

8 hours ago, Lizardcommando said:

Question for OP, how exactly do you do the subtle lighting for your liminal pool rooms as seen in the first set of screenshots you posted in the opening thread? I tried my hand at making my own liminal space pool room, but the lighting isn't as soft as yours.

 

Firstly you must be on UDMF format (which I assume you are considering you made water with depth), and there are entities called dynamic lights (which is how I get most of the effects in the screenshots), they should be near the bottom of the things folders. Personally I prefer using vavoom lights, I can't exactly point out how they work, but I recommend using them. If you wanna add a warm color like orange, use vavoom light color, and slightly modify the Green and Blue value (at around ~220), make sure to make it so that the value for Blue is lower than Green's, otherwise it might make some purple.

I would kill to see a liminal doom wad. But honestly I don’t think it can be done. So far I haven’t seen any liminal space doom images that give that feeling of uneasiness that real liminal space images do. I think it’s because normal doom levels always have that weird geometry that some liminal spaces have or they lack the small details that show humans lived there but abandoned it. But still, I am open to playing liminal space wads so if yall know any tell me about it.

6 hours ago, ALilGrayBoi said:

I would kill to see a liminal doom wad. But honestly I don’t think it can be done. So far I haven’t seen any liminal space doom images that give that feeling of uneasiness that real liminal space images do. I think it’s because normal doom levels always have that weird geometry that some liminal spaces have or they lack the small details that show humans lived there but abandoned it. But still, I am open to playing liminal space wads so if yall know any tell me about it.

My house.pk3 achieves a really nice liminal feeling to his maps, you probably forgot about it when you've written that message. Otherwise I don't know any other maps that are intentionally liminal

There is one way to make any map have a liminal space vibe here are the steps:

1.Delete all monsters 

2.No music

3.Add a flashlight mod or just darkzdoom

4.Walk around 

Optional stuff:

1.Add a creepy mod like lasting light 

2.Heartbeat sound and reverbe

3.Use headphones and stay in a dark room

4.You made the game creepy yay 

13 hours ago, Dooooooom said:

There is one way to make any map have a liminal space vibe here are the steps:

1.Delete all monsters 

2.No music

3.Add a flashlight mod or just darkzdoom

4.Walk around 

Optional stuff:

1.Add a creepy mod like lasting light 

2.Heartbeat sound and reverbe

3.Use headphones and stay in a dark room

4.You made the game creepy yay 

Average 2017 horror game 

6 hours ago, ALilGrayBoi said:

Average 2017 horror game 

Yeah totally just noticed it well you can keep the monsters and make it doom 3 eh??

Have you found any other textures that would suit these liminal space maps? That default FLAT20 texture has been serving me well so far, but it would be ideal to have textures that are more white. Some new sky textures would be ideal too, something like a clear bright and blue sky.

2 hours ago, Lizardcommando said:

Have you found any other textures that would suit these liminal space maps? That default FLAT20 texture has been serving me well so far, but it would be ideal to have textures that are more white. Some new sky textures would be ideal too, something like a clear bright and blue sky.

Surprisingly I already have everything you are asking for : new tile textures, and a bright blue sky (it's very stretched though and I don't know how to fix it). I will point out that every texture is a flat, that includes those that arent 64*64, dunno if it's compromising in any sort of way in UDMF.

Here's the link : https://www.mediafire.com/file/4fc3mx91u5myz7q/liminal+texturing.wad/file

i kinda made something along these lines for my slaughter school wad project, I more thought about the pun of a poolroom with "splash damage" then really tried to make something liminal but i think it naturally emerged from making a pool room map, so here, Splash Damage! 

@Lizardcommando I wonder, you've asked for advice and some help, but you didn't show the result of your map, and I actually got pretty curious of what you've been building, a few screenshots would be nice

On 6/13/2024 at 10:30 AM, fruity lerlups said:

i kinda made something along these lines for my slaughter school wad project, I more thought about the pun of a poolroom with "splash damage" then really tried to make something liminal but i think it naturally emerged from making a pool room map, so here, Splash Damage! 

 

Haven't tested the map yet, though it does give some ambiance. (That's so many liminal maps to try... I gotta catch up at some point)

I haven't really done much with my map, to be honest. After the first room, I made three more rooms and that was it. I was pretty much trying to recreate some liminal pool room pictures I saw on Google. I was still having trouble getting the shadows to look right. I used sector based lighting for the shadows, which worked for anything on land, but if there's water in the dark sectors, it looks really bad. I think it might have to do with how I defined the water in the dark areas.

Aliens TC's first map is my first exposure to this kind of concept. It was the first map I've ever played that has no monsters at all, and I felt on edge throughout the entire map, constantly wondering when something was gonna come out.

Pool room.

12 minutes ago, bejiitas_wrath said:

Pool room.

This reminds me of TNT map15 - Dead Zone from TNT. Definitely has a liminal feel to it, it feels like a floating facility among asteroids.

1 hour ago, bejiitas_wrath said:

Pool room.

1 hour ago, DoomGappy said:

This reminds me of TNT map15 - Dead Zone from TNT. Definitely has a liminal feel to it, it feels like a floating facility among asteroids.

More proof that liminal spaces inside doom is a cool concept.

2 hours ago, bejiitas_wrath said:

Pool room.

2 hours ago, DoomGappy said:

This reminds me of TNT map15 - Dead Zone from TNT. Definitely has a liminal feel to it, it feels like a floating facility among asteroids.

I notice a few patterns across all these images that seem to really make them feel lonely, and dreadful. Much more so than regular Doom maps

First, and this is the most important, they all have very flat, bright lighting, making them seem harsh and foreboding. Humans rely on shadows to help us define perspective, and when they're taken away, we feel disoriented, and disorientation sparks fear

Second, they're empty and hollow, with only a few distinct features to break up the monotonous flat textures and patterned walls. They're also devoid (or nearly devoid) of monsters, and whenever there is a monster in one of these images, it's distant, and its pose is static

Third, there are no natural features beyond a few stray, dead vines in these images, nor even any remotely earthly skies. It's all sterile, purposeless structures and galactic nothingness as far as the eye can see

Last but certainly not least, a few of the images make use of long, repetitive stretches of flats with distinctive patterns. I don't know what it is about them, but I think it's the extreme perspective distortion that makes them reminiscent of infinity

On 5/22/2024 at 6:30 AM, rafael2100 said:

 

That first picture reminds me a lot of map01 of doom II, and that reminded of a time when as a kid I was playing a lot of doom II, and I vividly remember taking a good look of the outside in the picture and I experienced unknown emotions, I just didn't know how to process them

 

I think this is precisely what I felt at that moment. I just NEEDED to know what was beyond the borders of entryway, but at the same time... I just felt like I shouldn't go there, like I was going to discover a very disheartening truth about this world

 

I didn't think Doom had any liminal spaces until you mentioned this and it unlocked a very similar memory of me playing Doom2 as a kid. Except for me it was the chainsaw area in Entryway that triggered this feeling. Just seeing the world beyond that fence, realising that's where you must have come in, but it's so empty.

The big outdoor area in E1M2 also tickles my brain. Just this big weird empty space, where you can look into different parts of the map. 

8 hours ago, WASFDDDDD said:

 

I notice a few patterns across all these images that seem to really make them feel lonely, and dreadful. Much more so than regular Doom maps

 

 

First, and this is the most important, they all have very flat, bright lighting, making them seem harsh and foreboding. Humans rely on shadows to help us define perspective, and when they're taken away, we feel disoriented, and disorientation sparks fear

 

Second, they're empty and hollow, with only a few distinct features to break up the monotonous flat textures and patterned walls. They're also devoid (or nearly devoid) of monsters, and whenever there is a monster in one of these images, it's distant, and its pose is static

 

Third, there are no natural features beyond a few stray, dead vines in these images, nor even any remotely earthly skies. It's all sterile, purposeless structures and galactic nothingness as far as the eye can see

 

Last but certainly not least, a few of the images make use of long, repetitive stretches of flats with distinctive patterns. I don't know what it is about them, but I think it's the extreme perspective distortion that makes them reminiscent of infinity

About the absence of monsters, that's because I started with the -nomonsters parameter, but I agree with all of the other points.

Interesting thread here. I must say I'm quite fond of making liminal spaces in Doom but I'm not quite sure if I like them being bright. I guess this is more because I do a lot of shading and lighting on my maps.

I find it interesting that what gets a lot of attention tends to be open areas instead of enclosed spaces, but yeah, I do agree Entryway's complete lack of even a door behind you unlike Hangar gives the map an odd vibe.

Would be cool to make a community project around the idea for sure.

1 hour ago, Matt Eldrydge said:

Would be cool to make a community project around the idea for sure.

I'm actually already starting to setup for the day I officially host this community project, which is for not too late, around 2 weeks from now if I'm confident. I'm already creating a discord server, and I will look and observe what my ambitions and ideas are for this project, and rework if they are too demanding, or outright impossible on the doom engine.

So far I won't tell you how it's going to go, i'd rather keep it as a surprise for later.

Originally, I wanted to create a normal level, with a small twist, that being a secret button that opened an entrance towards the real cake : the labyrinthine mess of the poolrooms, divided by 3 sections, the bright and sunny day area, the sunset area, more focused on lighting, and the abyss, which is underwater. Now it's a little more complex, especially ever since I got the idea of at least including more liminal spaces other than the poolrooms ever since I saw sladspace by @WASFDDDDD, and I originally intended to create all of it all by myself, obviously I horribly over-estimated on how I would handle this, because we all know for a fact this is incredibly time consuming.

So 'liminal' means '-nomonsters' k got it