Communism

1. Get underpants.
2. ...
3. PROFITS!

Communism is another one of those concepts that might be great on a bumper sticker but when relied upon and ran by a large group of people it always turns into a wet bucket of shit.

To basically summarize communism for you and me, here it is:
Work your ass off. Stand in line in blistering cold to get your stale food. Royalty/Dictator/King/Emperor/Führer sits in gigantic gold castle drinking wine and smoking massive cigars.

I know that's not the main concept but isn't that how it has always turned out?

The only possible exception is China, and they're pretty heavy with the treating-their-own-people-like-dirt.

Perhaps you think that this bedtime story might be the ultimate civilization for you and me, but you have to remember, it is going to be ran by PEOPLE and that is why it will always fail.

Agreed.

You're talking about Russian Communism. Communism in theory is supposed not really have a government, because the community is the governement. it worked for the Natives, but it can't work for a country, because what ends up happening is what you just described, deadnail. In theory it sounds great, but I'm not sure how it can work, because it really sounds more like backwards-evolution to me.

What about Cuba? What about their populace and their leaders?

Like I said, it might be a dandy concept but actually having it work would be nigh impossible. That's why I prefer my form of Democracy/Republic where we get to pick who's running the show.

Hehe, wait for danarchist's reply.

Anyways, when I first learend about the theory of communism, for about three days I was a communist. Then I did some investigating, and I gradually found out that it hasn't worked.

Further investigation and logical independent common sense ended my subscription to communist ideals.

It's an excellent theory (though some of its reasoning I do not agree with), and I HAVE read the Communist Manifesto. But it places way too much power in the hands of the government (which requires the government to be absolutely honest with what it does, and face it, NO government is absolutely honest).

I also believe in hard work, and under communism I will be doing hard work while others will sit there, do nothing, and get checks from the government.

Basically, it will fail because it is run by humans, and humans are, though responsible, are by nature flawed and greedy.

Actually, communism will fail because it eliminates competition, therefore violating the code of nature and evolution. it can't work...and Cuba actually isn't in as bad a state as a lot of people think they are. A lot of americans don't like 'em because they're told not to. Considering what it was like before Castro, with the U.S. running the country unofficially with corruption, which is why castro kicked them out. I wouldn't want the mob running my country, after all...well...come to think of it, righ tnow, it's not much different than Chretien...

i live in Canada as well. And last year my parents took a trip to Cuba, and said the people were really nice.

I wonder what an ideal Marxist world would be like......

short-lived

Good point about competition Pilot. I completely overlooked that.

It would be the ultimate paradise that humans are not capable of. We should be able to accomplish it. But we can't. It's too simple. Essentially it says "Property is bad when not everyone has it. Give it to everyone. Problem solved."

NOT QUITE.

Communism does work, like someone said before, the natives were communists until the damnable monarchial Europeans came in and killed them off. It still works to this day for the bush people in Africa. True, those ARE primative societies, but it IS possible to add technology and have it still work.

To basically summarize communism for you and me, here it is:
Work your ass off. Stand in line in blistering cold to get your stale food. Royalty/Dictator/King/Emperor/Führer sits in gigantic gold castle drinking wine and smoking massive cigars.

No, right there you are talking about a totalitarian society, the opposite of a social communist society. If a true communism were established, everyone would get equal shares and there would be no need for money.

True, it is nigh impossible to establish one, but it IS possible. The scenario from the Star Trek series for instance, is fesible: the world breaks out into nuclear war and mankind is nearly destroyed. With there being no government, monetary system, or major bits of property to fight for, there can be a new government established, a better one this time.

This does sound bleak, but it seems that as long as we have mass quantities of stupid people on this planet (i.e. America), there is no hope for such a government to take place.

Option number 2 would be to START with a dictatorship situation: one man comes to absolute power, possibly being hailed as a new messiah to get into such a position. If said person is a level-headed and humble person with half a brain, they would FORCE the people into a communism. The only problem with this is that absolute power corrupts absolutely. The only one I know that could possibly pull this off is me, but thats just wishful thinking. :)

I guess the bottom line is that I am not really a communist, but it is the best system of government I can think of.

If a true communism were established, everyone would get equal shares and there would be no need for money.

Well here's a question for you sir. How will you control the frustrations of some workers/producers that do their part but must do more (or just choose to) to make up for slackers. Or is it that you have a method of making everyone in the population not become a slacker. I'm curious.

Also, how would you handle people who challenge the system? Although, if it is as good as it sounds, there will be people like this.

Even if these above questions are answered and upheld, I still won't subscribe to it as long as it doesn't allow a means of individual protection (and face it, the only person that can readily protect myself is me). Yes, I'm talking about firearms, but that discussion is pretty much finished. :)

Well here's a question for you sir. How will you control the frustrations of some workers/producers that do their part but must do more (or just choose to) to make up for slackers. Or is it that you have a method of making everyone in the population not become a slacker. I'm curious.

Like the old communes from the 70s, slackers would be punished, having their shares witheld from them, so they would have to get up off their asses to work. Plus (though it sounds a bit like 1984), there would be mass propaganda like: THE WORK YOU DO TODAY WILL HELP THE PEOPLE TOMORROW. Or something. And don't start dissing me for being a propaganda-nazi or something, the US floods you with mass propaganda everyday, but you don't realize it.

Also, how would you handle people who challenge the system? Although, if it is as good as it sounds, there will be people like this.

Demonstrations would be allowed, even encouraged as long as they don't get violent. As someone (I think it was either Jefferson or Franklin) once said (and I'm paraphasing): to keep a government fair, there must be a revolution every once in a while. Laws will be open to change, and everyone will get their one vote to cast (the power of any congress or senate would be diminished).

Even if these above questions are answered and upheld, I still won't subscribe to it as long as it doesn't allow a means of individual protection (and face it, the only person that can readily protect myself is me). Yes, I'm talking about firearms, but that discussion is pretty much finished. :)

Hmmm...personaly, I don't think firearms are such a good thing to keep around, yet there would be sufficient police around. Perhaps a 'police alarm' in each house would be a good thing, much like the alarms they have in the red light district in Amsterdam.

Like the old communes from the 70s, slackers would be punished, having their shares witheld from them, so they would have to get up off their asses to work. Plus (though it sounds a bit like 1984), there would be mass propaganda like: THE WORK YOU DO TODAY WILL HELP THE PEOPLE TOMORROW. Or something. And don't start dissing me for being a propaganda-nazi or something, the US floods you with mass propaganda everyday, but you don't realize it.

All governments use propaganda.

Sounds like it SHOULD work, but everything that can go wrong will. In this world of yours will you be able to choose your profession? What if the choice of profession doesn't contribute to GDP like the Government would want it to?

And what about competition? If these "shares" are all the same, then all the food will be the same, all the goods the same, etc. What about variety? What happens if a certain kind of good/food is inadequate for one reason or another? Then that will be the only one that exists, and wouldn't a massive switch in Government/worker production take quite a long time?

Investing such massive amounts of power in a single Government to honestly distribute "shares" is quite risky, don't you believe? ALL governments are not 100% honest with power.

Demonstrations would be allowed, even encouraged as long as they don't get violent. As someone (I think it was either Jefferson or Franklin) once said (and I'm paraphasing): to keep a government fair, there must be a revolution every once in a while. Laws will be open to change, and everyone will get their one vote to cast (the power of any congress or senate would be diminished).

Yes, as I recall, it was either one of those gentlemen.
The purpose of a congress and/or senate is to protect against mob rule. It is a proportional system, so, for example, in a presidential race, if mob rule were in place, Candidate A would only have to win a certain amount of districts, the most populated districts, which could be only four or five, and Candidate A would win the election while Candidate B would win all the other districts, win a broader variety and scope of public opinion, and lose. To solve that, fellows like Jefferson and Franklin thought up of the Electoral College to protect minority opinion. The sample I just wrote is very simplistic, I'm sure there's a collection of essays on it somewhere.

Hmmm...personaly, I don't think firearms are such a good thing to keep around, yet there would be sufficient police around. Perhaps a 'police alarm' in each house would be a good thing, much like the alarms they have in the red light district in Amsterdam.

Pushing a button and having someone else come to my rescue is something I cannot agree with. Well, we both know that I can't respond to this directly since there's already a three page thread on this. I can, though, ask you about rights in your world that you are talking about. Will they exist? To what extent? Do you honestly believe that a massive amount of police, sponsored by the Government, can be effective let alone trusted with the absolute power of protecting the people's lives and property (oops, forgot, no property in this world)?

Also, with the structure of this world that you envision, what would private life be like for the people? Would it exist at all? Since, as we have seen before, communist governments are difficult to maintain, it would seem essential to maintain a close eye on the people as to not fuck things up.

About the natives, I believe that was me...and it wasn't EXACTLY communism, and it was only like 2 tribes, the Huron and the Iroquois, and they lived in tiny communes...that's why it DID work. With 50 people it'll work. With 50 million...not a chance in hell.

Actually some small scale communes in the 1800s (Oneida, Brook Farm, Shakers, Amana Society, New Harmony) worked for periods of time but ultimately failed for the same reasons communistic-type ventures fail.

Have any of you actually read the Communist Manifesto or any of Chairman Mao's work? Mao himself wrote that communism was not the final solution, but was a way for an underdeveloped nation to pull itself into the modern era without assistance from outside nations. Self-reliance was the key... as long as your people buy into the vision and don't mind having their individual freedoms mitigted. However, once a level of development is achieved, even Mao recognized that it was not a permenant answer.

Have any of you actually read the Communist Manifesto or any of Chairman Mao's work?

and I HAVE read the Communist Manifesto

*sigh* communism dosn't really work. It needs an honour system. Capitalism works because it dosn't.

P.S. I just think that the soviet thinggy looks neat.

rofl

*sigh* communism dosn't really work. It needs an honour system. Capitalism works because it dosn't.

P.S. I just think that the soviet thinggy looks neat.

That "honour system" is called purging the people in most cases. :)

I like the hammer and sickel too.

We don't live in a capitalistic world, we're still ruled some economic standard (golf or silver or something), and therefore our markets our limited, we experience inflation, not economic growth.

There is one big element no-one here has mentioned
yet. Communism is MORE than an economical/ social
system.

It`s a concept that lies deep in all of our minds.
It is THE dream we ALL have of a perfect world.
It is something that has been with us for as long
as can be remembered, before it was called
communism (Plato wrote about communism)
It is not a system or a country that we are dealing
with, but a manifestation of the metafysica in our
minds.

Rusia, China, Cuba, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, More...etc
are just example we use, in our quest to make sense
of it.
We should try to look at communism from a more
philosophical point of view.

There is one big element no-one here has mentioned
yet. Communism is MORE than an economical/ social
system.

It`s a concept that lies deep in all of our minds.
It is THE dream we ALL have of a perfect world.
It is something that has been with us for as long
as can be remembered, before it was called
communism (Plato wrote about communism)
It is not a system or a country that we are dealing
with, but a manifestation of the metafysica in our
minds.

Rusia, China, Cuba, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, More...etc
are just example we use, in our quest to make sense
of it.
We should try to look at communism from a more
philosophical point of view.

exactly...

*yawn* what's communism?

Hay! I just found out that th KKK Hates Communism to!
Funny, that sounds like somthing I should have known.

oh well, cool! now I spray paint the hammer and sikal over any nazi thinggys I find, under wich i wright "The red army is comming..."

That shound put the fear into the harts of those mother fuckers.

There is one big element no-one here has mentioned
yet. Communism is MORE than an economical/ social
system.

It`s a concept that lies deep in all of our minds.
It is THE dream we ALL have of a perfect world.
It is something that has been with us for as long
as can be remembered, before it was called
communism (Plato wrote about communism)
It is not a system or a country that we are dealing
with, but a manifestation of the metafysica in our
minds.

Rusia, China, Cuba, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, More...etc
are just example we use, in our quest to make sense
of it.
We should try to look at communism from a more
philosophical point of view.

Oh brother. What a bunch of nonsense.

All other comments aside, 'perfect' is subjective. What you may think to be perfect may be perfectly AWFUL to me. You have no right to push YOUR idea of perfection off onto ME or ANYONE ELSE!

From a philosophical point of view, some of us are more Taoist in our perspectives. Some more Machevellian. A philosophy is just that. Another subjective ideology that will never be accepted by all people.

Some of us recognize that human nature is and always will be human nature and the best we can ever hope for is what we already have. Dreams are for dreamers. Life happens around us in the real plane of existence.

If it don't pay my rent, then I couldn't give a hoot.

Oh brother. What a bunch of nonsense.

All other comments aside, 'perfect' is subjective. What you may think to be perfect may be perfectly AWFUL to me. You have no right to push YOUR idea of perfection off onto ME or ANYONE ELSE!

From a philosophical point of view, some of us are more Taoist in our perspectives. Some more Machevellian. A philosophy is just that. Another subjective ideology that will never be accepted by all people.

Some of us recognize that human nature is and always will be human nature and the best we can ever hope for is what we already have. Dreams are for dreamers. Life happens around us in the real plane of existence.

If it don't pay my rent, then I couldn't give a hoot.

I agree on the fact that you can disagree, BenDover, but
we all agree on the fact that everyone has an idea of a perfect world, eventough it not the same idea.

Like Plato described, the world we belief to be real is just a shadow of the real real world. The shadow doesn`t give us enough information the know what the object looks like exectly.

We thousants of years later are looking at the shadow of
the 'idea of a perfect world'. Some people believed they saw
communism in the shadow. Communism is just a word we use to
describe how much we have seen and thought of so far. It`s not perfect (yet), we haven`t seen the real thing, but we are getting there (if we ever will).

Hay! I just found out that th KKK Hates Communism to!

Well, duh...KKK = Nazis, Nazis hate Commies...obvious conclusion. :)

Spot on, Deady. Communism is impossible to realise in a homosapien environment. There are certain charcter traits about human beings which make it impossible, inalienable truths.
1) People are greedy and selfish
2) People who run things are politicians. Politicians philander. Communism is, whatever you call them, still run by politicians. It is therefore fuct.
~Enda~