Plutonia Revisited Community Project: Released!

Just some things I came across while error checking the wad with DeepSea. May or may not be important.

map 08 ...
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@Xaser - Thankyou but that is by far too much of a compliment :)

I did some experimenting earlier today with some invisible raised barriers to allow the pain elementals in but have ended up changing it back using the taller MIDGRATE texture instead so it doesn't look so odd that the flying demons are blocked. There were a couple of problems with the barriers (shots blocked if player was low enough / bounced out by the AVs) but also I liked the idea of having the safe area. I am also going to merge the two surrounding triggers at the blue key into one.

Edit: I've done some more testing and tweaked some more stuff. I've also added some music (from that thread about the unused doom midis) a slightly modified un42.mid. I've PM'd Joshy with the new version.

More feedback from MegaDoomer:

Map21 appears to have a small bug - I was not able to get 100% secrets as the megasphere secret seems not to want to trigger. Otherwise I got 100% kills and would have gotten 100% secrets were it not for the aformentioned bug. As for the map itself, this is one of the few maps so far where I'd honestly recommend changing nothing on the balance front. There was a nice (yet not excessive) supply of ammo but there isn't much health, and I think that's just the way it should be. I liked how you get the extra Megasphere for fighting the Cyber - but you must fight too earn it. The only slight change I'd make on the gameplay front is to not make the Archvile in the exit visible or shootable in any way until the exit is opened. As is, you can just peek-a-boo shoot it through the small window(s) around the exit door, and it largely isn't a threat. Architecturally this one is quite old school but I didn't mind it - my only suggestion is to improve texture alignment on some of the stairs from the lava. Overall I quite liked this map, and it gets honors for being one of the few where I did NOT find an excess of health at all.

Map22 was another good map, right in the spirit of the original. However, I have a handful of minor nitpicks plus what appears to be a bug:
-POSSIBLE BUG: Linedef 1817, which is supposed to lower a secret, appears to be non-functional. This prevented 100% secrets; otherwise I would have attained 100% ratios.
-I'm not sure I'm a fan of the goup suits being behind what looks like it's an exit door. Very minor though.
-The doors at sector 77 (both sides) need to be lowered to ground level. Otherwise the player can "snipe" the archviles behind them by shooting through the tiny gap between the door and floor.
-Balance-wise: This one was again much more spot-on than most before it. Ammo was just right, I thought. In terms of health, the only suggestion(s) I would have is to make Thing 206 a Supercharge rather than a Megasphere; a Megasphere made it a bit too easy IMO. Also I'd drop the Supercharge right at the exit; it seemed redundant as since the player's finished fighting it has no use. Besides those two items, this is another nice example IMO of how ammo/health should be balanced in Plutonia levels. Another very good map overall!

Map23 was excellent architecturally and design-wise. I got 100% secrets and kills without finding any bugs, and it was a lot of fun. However, I feel the health/ammo issues return here with too much health overall and maybe also a little too much ammo.

Map24 has excellent design and is a great homage to the original Plutonia Map24 (as well as Doom II Map29, my favorite Doom II level). It also is a lot of fun. However once again I found it too easy, but in this case the monster population seemed surprisingly sparse. So rather than removing a bunch of health and ammo, I'd instead suggest increasing the monster count, and maybe remove a little health, but keep ammo the same, as more monsters should make the ammo balance easily. That will make the map more right in line with Plutonia IMO. There were no bugs I found and I attained 100% ratios (some of the secrets are quite tricky too!).

Map25 has what I'd consider a semi-bug/glitch first of all - the Caco's at sectors 802 and 547 (both in the same relative area) are no threat at all to the player because they can't come after him/her due to what is likely a block monster linedef in between. Past that, I loved the design of the map, especially the ending area, which felt spooky; it looked like the same area as I had seen previously, but it isn't! Not sure why that area's hidden on the automap though. Otherwise I found a small excess of health and about the right amount of ammo, balance-wise.

However with only 76 monsters on HMP, this is almost inappropriately spasely populated for a Plutonia map! So similar to Map24, I'd add some more monsters, keep health about the same, and add a little ammo to accomodate, because in this case (unlike Map24) I didn't find there to be an excess of ammo. Besides the caco thing at the beginning of the paragraph, I found nothing resembling a glitch or bug and attained 100% ratios. Very good and fun map, I'm just not sure such a low monster count is appropriate, but OTOH I wouldn't be totally against just removing some health and keeping the count as is, as it kind of makes the map have a feel of its own. In other words, I'm a bit divided on what to do here - but think either solution will result in an improvement.

Map26 is a very good map by you and Belial, and worthy of its title overall, but there are areas of criticism:
-Aside from the "dummy" secret at the start, there are no secrets. I'd add at least 2 or 3, making them well hidden, and remove the "dummy" one at the start.
-I think sector 35 offers too much hiding/cover opportunity from the fight(s) at the start.
-The Cyber at the end would be much more challenging without a BFG. I'd remove the BFG on medium and hard or at least hide it in a secret (could be one of the secrets this map needs, anyways).
-Balance-wise, ammo is good besides the BFG thing mentioned above. I think in terms of health, however, the blue armors should be green armors instead and the megaspheres converted to supercharges. This would make the health balance about right IMO. Maybe keep the megasphere at the beginning as is if you decide to reduce hiding in sector 35 (see above). But I definitely think Thing 258 should be a supercharge at most, because the ensuing fight in that arena isn't that tough at all if you flip the swtich, and circle strafe as the Cyberdemon helps do the work for you.
-Might want to consider making the fight mentioned in the above comment harder to just circle-strafe through, period. It might not be necessary though if the megasphere is reduced to a supercharge or less.

But overall I enjoyed this map a lot. Great music too.

As for Map27, I think it's quite good all-round one again (got 100%'s and no bugs). However there is again a bit of an excess of health in parts IMO (ammo seemed about right). Also it could use some texture alignment work, especially in the sewer-like area. In that same area, I'd remove one of the green armors; having two green armors that close to each other made for too much armor IMO. Most of these issues appear on many of ArmouredBlood's maps (i.e. the ones he's made in other projects), and this was actually one of the best maps I've played by him IMO, so aside from the mentioned issues this was a lot of fun. And the way to the BFG secret - wall strafing - was quite innovative.

I'm going to leave Map28 and Map29 alone for the time being, considering they look to both be very long and involved. However I went ahead and played Map30. Overall (for Map30) I liked the extreme challenge and wouldn't change anything balance-wise. The new wall image of the boss is quite cool! I got all the kills and secrets; but I found one minor bug - the Cybers on ground level seem to occasionally manage to get "stuck" on the inner wall(s); I'd find what's causing this and fix it. Otherwise an excellent finale map.

Joshy said:

However with only 76 monsters on HMP, this is almost inappropriately spasely populated for a Plutonia map!

This was actually the main focus of the map: make it tough while using as little monsters as possible. This was to deliberately contrast Helix, which actually has more monsters then every Plutonia 1 or 2 map except for Ticket to Eternity. >_<

I gave myself a hard limit of 100 monsters on UV, and managed to make it using 99. ;)

Anyhow, I'm considering doing some more extensive HMP testing of my maps to weed out the probably-excess items. And by "more extensive" I mean "I think I can trick somebody into playing them." :P

More feedback from MegaDoomer:
Map21 appears to have a small bug - I was not able to get 100% secrets as the megasphere secret seems not to want to trigger.

Not a bug. Activation of line 750 worked perfectly in both chocolate-doom and risen3d.

More feedback from MegaDoomer:
Map22 -POSSIBLE BUG: Linedef 1817, which is supposed to lower a secret, appears to be non-functional. This prevented 100% secrets; otherwise I would have attained 100% ratios.

Again, not a bug. Activation of line 1817 worked perfectly in both chocolate-doom and risen3d.

Don't be so quick to dismiss what might actually be an issue caused by a vanilla bug. It's worth investigating, at least, if anyone else can confirm having trouble with it in PRBoom+ or another port.

Why does everyone keep thinking that's an exit door? There's no hints or anything that give such an impression (maybe it's the way those steps look).

Not sure what to say about the bug, if it works fine in Chocolate Doom it should work well elsewhere.

Moving the door to floor level would most likely cause a tutti-frutti effect given it's a 96-unit tall door. Maybe move the arch-viles further back with a blocked monster linedef?

You may change the megasphere, though there is already a soulsphere at the exit for multiplayer. So maybe uncheck multiplayer, change the megasphere to a soulsphere and mark that as multiplayer.

I can send this in if you like.

Xaser said:

Don't be so quick to dismiss what might actually be an issue caused by a vanilla bug. It's worth investigating, at least, if anyone else can confirm having trouble with it in PRBoom+ or another port.

Bear in mind that the main requirement for this pwad is to be vanilla compatible. As stated before those so called bugs are not bugs, as they worked fine in choco doom.

To allay your concerns though, I also tried those issues in gzdoom,prboom+,Edge and Eternity and managed to reach the secret areas concerned.

I wonder if Joshy can contact MegaDoomer and ask him what source port he was using to test this with.

valkiriforce said:

I can send this in if you like.

That would probably be easier for that kind of updates. :3

MegaDoomer PM'ed:
Following your posting of my feedback, it has been pointed out (first by hawkwind) that the possible bugs I pointed out on Map21 and Map22 (the Megasphere secret and Linedef 1817, respectively) do not occur in Chocolate Doom or Risen3D. I tested these out quickly with Chocolate Doom and ZDoom (don't have Risen3D ATM) and indeed, both function properly. However when going back to PRBoom+, the Map21 megasphere seems to trigger the secret only if you step on it in EXACTLY the right place (so not impossible but very picky) and on Map22, linedef 1817 simply refuses to work. So as was suggested later in the thread, these are probably PRBoom+ (or Boom-compatible port) specific issues.

MegaDoomer PM'ed
Sorry for causing extra work here. The bug I mentioned with Linedef 1817 on Map22 does not exist. I just realized Linedef 1817 triggers when shot, not pressed. I must have shot it when testing with ZDoom and Choco Doom but for some odd reason not tried shooting it in PRBoom+. I honestly have no idea why I didn't try the exact same things in all ports, but it was an accident and Linedef 1817 is fully functional. Sorry again, my bad.

I may be missing something here, as I am wont to do, but is there a reason why MegaDoomer can't post directly into the thread?

Mista_T said:

I may be missing something here, as I am wont to do, but is there a reason why MegaDoomer can't post directly into the thread?

He wanted to keep his status or whatever, as registered lurker for some reason... Probably wanted to keep himself out so he wouldn't get banned. I don't know. He'll PM me why. ;P

Well, if he's interested in only ever posting in Blogs, I could understand that, since it's fun and confusing all at once to see people with zero postcount say something. ;)

I think MegaDoomer does that because of his past accounts:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/members/Brandon%20D.%20Lade/

and if I'm not mistaken

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/members/Do0minat0r/

I think he feels staying quiet is the best way to avoid any of the silly things he did before. I must say, he's done well at laying low.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that this could go into "drama" territory. Sorry for the slight derail.

Drama? Nothing really dramatic going on here.

Also, seriously not getting in playtesting done for this at the moment. Soooo fucking busy lately :(

Figured I'd continue on my journey. Kept it paused for a bit too long...

MAP26: Poison Ivy III
- The red door to the southwest of the starting point is unmarked.
- I couldn't be sure, but there might have been a stuck spectre in the southwest nukage'n'metal-bars area.
* Actually, just confirmed the above. They get stuck next to the GARG switch.
- The top of the broken bar in the same area has a NUKAGE flat on top, instead of CEIL5_2 or similar.
Overall: Damn, this map was a bitch! Fun, though, and entertainig considering that half the time the only ammunition I had was rockets... plenty of self-destruction sequences here. :P -- Anyhow, a well-built map, probably a bit difficult for my tastes, but we're getting late in the game so that's very understandable. Especially considering that Belial worked on it. :P

MAP27: Planned Overload
- Automap line giveaways. The areas to the immediate left and right of the start room are clearly going to lower and reveal something later on... >_<
- The 'deep water' used in the nukage area is really just a HOM... eh, doesn't look convincing to me.
Overall: Good map -- short n' sweet, and to be honest, I didn't midn the wallrun area much even though it's caught a slight bit of feedback in other places. Good use of vertical space either way. :)

MAP28: Dance with the Devil
- The revenants in the YK area have their locations spoiled by automap lines (I'm sensing a pattern... :P)
- A few more areas suffer from the same problem as above, but I forgot to mention them because I was too busy having fun. :P
Overall: Simple design, a cool premise, and excellent execution... now THIS is Plutonia! Had a lot of fun with this one, I did.


Well, almost at the end now. I'm psyched. :)

and more feedback for coop from me. i didn't have much luck testing it in more coop sessions, but i did play them in -solo-net and kinda divined how it'd work with more people. everything mentioned concerns stuff with the multiplayer flag!

map08:
should work fine, but i suggest adding a chainsaw at start. just to be sure and perhaps save a couple of shells, the first half is a bit tight on ammo.

map09:
changes into a different map in coop, gets much tougher... there should be enough ammo when players are not wasteful, though.
- i'd add an early green armor and a soulsphere in the central room. health is a big issue here, lots of getting owned in the face with powerful monster attacks.
- perhaps another soulsphere in the staircase trap room shortly before blue key. the wing involves a lot of chaingunners and someone will be surely hurting. :)
- the mastermind is hard to kill and baron fireballs can't hit him, they end up on the wall beneath him. this results in a huge ammo/health sink or just giving up and running away from him. either make the platform lower or put another cell pack in the funny floor hallway where you fight the cyber.

map10:
- seems to be working well without glitches, a great monster grinder. :)

map11:
no coop stuff present in the map, but with the map theme, it's not really necessary. just a few nitpicks...
- consider adding berserks for every player somewhere near start though - for ammo crises, cause they will come.
- consider throwing 50 shells in small amounts around the map. the map's quite tight on ammo and long.

map12:
ok, this promises great fun, but i kept getting hurt and generally owned with not enough goodies to replenish myself. more players will struggle even more to share them.
- add 2 GAs and about 20 shells in the opening areas, it's quite tough
- 2 more rocket boxes for the cybie room, please? to take out the AV one has to risk or snipe, and both will waste a lot of rox.
- throw around 100% health's worth on the promenade under bfg, it gets really messy with revs, chainers and an annoying AV, but there's just 1 berserk.

map13:
the start is tough as nails with just SGs. cybie can help, but more players dodging rockets on those catwalks while fighting the fodder... it can get hairy.
- add 1 more GA, 1 more berserk, 75% worth of health and 2 more radsuits around the unlocked parts (perhaps even in the blood). it's an open map and the additional resources can get handy at any point.
- move the coop shellbox away from the cybie, or add one more in the "start part" of the catwalk. the ammo is needed, but the risk is considerable.

map14:
start room is death. total, utter chaos with not much space to dodge (it is being used by your coop partners and the rev rockets chasing them). the rest of the map is a leisure cruise in comparison, hehe.
- compensate the start with at least one GA (BA in the compumap secret?), a soulsphere and 100% worth of health strewn inside the first building

map15: sorry, too big for me to get an estimate on without actually playing coop on it. i'll get back to it if i do.

map16:
works great when the cybers are left for later. :)
- consider a shellbox or two just to be sure there's enough ammo even when infighting/reviving goes wrong.

map17:
solo-net is actually extremely fun to play here, but for coop i'd suggest adding a green armor somewhere after 1/3, and about 20 to 40 shells more here and there.

map18:
i'm afraid people will fall off the ledges a lot, add some radsuits there. :)
- add a cell pack or two to the central plasma, that ammo can become necessary if the ammo secrets aren't discovered.

map19 and 20: same deal as 15. huge stuff, hard to get an opinion just from playing solo-net (which i actually didn't cause i'd just die all the time, hah).

In MAP14, if I have every co-op player start on a Green Armour, and then add a medikit in each trap room at the start, will that do? I think the soulsphere and/or blue armour additions would be a bit much, given how the map is pretty nicely supplied after that.

I'll also try out [WH]-Wilou84's idea with the arena when I implement this co-op change.

Would it be better to send the updated version straight to Joshy so he can add it into the updated test version, or to the testers first so they can try out the changes?

phobus that's a good idea, go for the green armors. just don't forget some health too, though. :) send it straight to joshy, it doesn't need balancing every single item and the changes will be enough, hopefully.

So long as the armors are marked multiplayer-only, it'd be just swell, I think.

Anyhow, the grand finale of random, inane Xaserthoughts on the maps:

MAP29: Atlatl
- There are a few places that CEILVINE should really be used instead of MIDVINE* -- didn't get the linedef #s just yet but I can fetch them really quick if so desired.
+ The red key trap is the best trap ever. :D
Overall: THIS MAP IS A DAMN BIG MAP DAMN -- not too huge, though. Great design, good gameplay throughout, solid as hell... not too much more to say 'bout this one -- it's a Mechadon map at its finest. Couldn't find much that needs fixing, even though I tried. :P

MAP30: In the Eye of the Beholder
* CACODAMN! Somehow I don't remember that area being so intense... :)
Overall: Okay, so I sorta cheated by seeing this map before, but it's just as crazy as I remember it. Very well done for a spawner boss -- I liked how there wasn't a repeated and horribly contrived puzzle you have to go through just to shoot it one time... either way, certainly a worthwhile blastfest. And the atmosphere is great -- strange runes and destroyed things let you know that something here is horribly wrong. Kudos. :)


Well, shoot. Looks like I've ran myself out of maps to play through. Still, though, 'tis been a damn fun ride, I must say. From what I've played (and not counting my own maps), this is certainly the best wad of 2011 and already one of my all-time favorites. I *might* like it better than PL2 -- not sure yet. I'll have to give them a run side-by-side when the final product comes out. Still, great work, everyone. I feel honored to have been able to contribute to something of this quality. Rock on!

@Xaser - I'll do a full playthrough of the maps from start to finish (yes, including finding out how to access the secret levels as well as finishing them)

I'll have plenty of input after I do the first two episodes.

Edit: Here's my input (I don't really have much to say at the moment) for the first seven maps so far.

Map01: It's pretty tough for a first map at the start, though not too bad in the end.

Map02: It was pretty decent, though the really annoying part was quickly finding all of the keys.

Map03: That Spider Mastermind/Chaingunners trap caught me off guard the first time I reached it.

Map04: The two key traps after the Cyberdemon was just insane, moreso the first one.

Map05: The really overwhelming trap was the Archvile/Revenant trap after pressing the switch to allow access to the yellow key; the two archvile trap a little later on (red key, was it?) wasn't too bad.

Map06: The only tough part (compared to the rest of the map anyway) was the archvile/chaingunner trap right at the end.

Map07: When both Cyberdemons died, the level just ended. I couldn't get the other mancubus to teleport in without both cybies biting the dust.

last part of the coop report. solo-neting through e3, cause i couldn't organize a coop in time.

map21:
insane stuff, health goes down WAAAY too fast. ammo would be plentiful, but a lot of it gets lost via teammates dying. needs health and armors everywhere.
- definitely all 4 green armors on the main route, as in on the ledges.
- a couple (as in two?) of blues in harder to reach/not so obvious areas too.
- like 500% health all around!!
- i'd still add more rad suits. i burned them all out even in solo-net!

map22:
hallway-ish, so it's micro instead of herding. enough of ammo to kill everything, but powerups are mostly stacked in the final area.
- needs health along the way. a stimpack after every second corner and medkit after every fourth or something like that, seriously. players will hurt a lot mainly due to hitscanners.
- also they'll be careful and perhaps slow, so consider more radsuits in the slimemaze secret and at least one in the RK part.
- add 1 or 2 shellboxes in the RK area in that corridor with all the rocket boxes. shells are really low at that point. i'd consider two of them in the ribcage maze as well.

map23:
works just as intended. :)

map24:
the PEs are so annoying... but that's according to plan and everything seems nicely balanced.

map25:
almost no coop stuff here, but the ammo in the first part is balanced too tight for more players. everyone will be running around with just chainsaws.
- sprinkle with a few more single shells here and there, i'd suggest about 40. that way all the players are at the low amount the solo guy feels.

map26:
crazy start, but we planned it that way, didn't we. :) i think it should be fine.
- consider adding a soul/megasphere in the slimemaze to compensate for the archvile density.

map27:
extremely tough, but already tested intensively and proven to be beatable. plenty of ammo/goodies, but oh god the hordes!

map28:
this is quite tough to estimate in just solonet, but i'd say most of the map is kinda tight on ammo, especially the start.
- start desperately needs more ammo, both shells (20-40) and bullets (100-200) and green armors (one at start, one a bit later?) to accomodate for more players.
- the rest of the map could use either a few (3 or 4 should be safe?) shellboxes (perhaps flood them all in the central hub room) or sprinkling the whole map with single shells.
- i'd say the health is so-so as it is, but i'm not very sure. if you want to bother with an occasional stimpack or medkit throughout the map to be kinder to more players, it'll be surely appreciated!

map29:
there's no way i can possibly test this in solo-net, haha. on the other hand mek went totally nuts with adding more of just about everything in coop, so this should be pretty epic and without shortages of anything except player stupidity, hehe.

map30:
no coop stuff... it's not necessary in map30, except just one player gets a mega. this is pretty much sure death for the rest in the caco fight.
- add 3 blue armors and 3 radsuits before teleporting to cacos. :) that way less than 4 players can't "cheat" with replenishing.
- add two cellpacks in the final area NOT over the teleport destination (one player sweeps most of it).

map31:
beta version, didn't see the final one.

map32:
haha, yeah. i trust wil, totally balanced and i don't even need to test. please. i like how the ssg placement further hints 2high2care. ;)


basically the maps intended as earlier/easier are pretty nuts in coop, because there's not enough ammo. and the more complicated and harder maps are either okay or suffer from lack of health/powerups, but not ammo. kind of ironic i think.

@gunpsycho: huhh, that map07 problem sounds like playing with a wrong iwad or complevel.

I'll do the little changes and resubmit now then - should be on its way to Joshy within the hour.

Same -- I've been tweaking mine a bit, and I'm wondering whether or not to go ahead and submit them or wait for more feedback to come in. They're loads better, anyway. ;)

dew said:

map12:
ok, this promises great fun, but i kept getting hurt and generally owned with not enough goodies to replenish myself. more players will struggle even more to share them.
- add 2 GAs and about 20 shells in the opening areas, it's quite tough
- 2 more rocket boxes for the cybie room, please? to take out the AV one has to risk or snipe, and both will waste a lot of rox.
- throw around 100% health's worth on the promenade under bfg, it gets really messy with revs, chainers and an annoying AV, but there's just 1 berserk.

Joshy, would you like to add things as well as balancing health in solo-net please? As I won't see my computer until next week, I can't do anything.

K!r4 said:

Joshy, would you like to add things as well as balancing health in solo-net please? As I won't see my computer until next week, I can't do anything.

No worries, I can do it for you. ;-)

I'll also go ahead and make the changes to my maps, now that more feedback has been made. I should get the changes to you, shortly.

Joshy said:

No worries, I can do it for you. ;-)

May the BFG9K be with you! Thanks.

Josh, I've sent you a PM with the link to my latest changes/fixes for all of my maps.