Twice the demons?

[Potatoguy]

 

....How?

I get that in Doom 2016 we had a vast array of demons to slaughter. But they nearly filled the entire list of demons that existed in Doom 1/2. So how in hell (pun intended) will Doom Eternal have twice the demons, if there's only like a few left from the classic Doom to include?

Ok, let me explain my confusion. In D4, we already got:

• Imps - Fucking Duh.
• Possessed Soldiers - The zombieguy replacements, i guess.
• Possessed Security - The shotgunguys, now 5 times as goddamn annoying.
• Lost Souls - Kamikaze motherfuckers, but alright.
• Pinky - Now only killable from behind.
• Spectre - Invisible, and just as annoying as ever.
• Hell Knight - Brawlers, and freaking awesome!
• Cacodemons - Why dem arms/legs, yo?
• Revenant - Doot.
• Mancubus - Now can jump 50 feet high? (Dafuq?)
• Summoner - Not an archvile.
• Baron of Hell - Best demon.
• Cyberdemon - Can't have a Doom game without him.
• Spidermastermind - Is that you, Olivia?

And the new enemies from 2016, the Hellrazer, Zombies and Z. Engineers. Cyber-Mancubus is apparently another demon type, so it apparently counts. And the Hell Guards being the newest demon boss addition to the roster.

So at minimum, we have around 16-20 demons already in D4/Doom 2016. So they want to have 32-40 demons in the next one?

Is there even enough demons to fill that niche?

 

It was already confirmed in the trailer that the Arachnotron, Archvile and Pain Elemental are making a return. And the Chaingunner can be an easy fan favorite to bring back as well. But that's only 4 demons. Including the Icon of Sin and the Mother Demon (yes, from Doom64. That game exists), that would make 2 extra demon bosses, adding to 6. So that still leaves around 10-14 demons remaining to fill. Where'd they gonna get the rest?

 

I guess it can be easily done with just different versions of the same demon (On how they did Cyber-Fatso), but that would seem weak. New demons would always be welcomed, but I just hope they server their own mechanic important in the already spectacular array of demons we already have. Some of the multiplayer-exclusive demons seem awesome to have (Although how would Harvester and Prowler work). I have not played anything of Doom 3, so I am unsure what demons they can pull from there to include in this action-packed sequel. I don't know... It feels that they're going for quantity over quality. But I can (and hope to) be wrong on this. These are the guys that made Doom 2016 after all.

What you guys think? Ya think they're just bluffing from the double demon count? Or will we have a good set of demons from the old game to fill the gap? What new demons would you guys want to see that would change up/add to the gameplay experience?

[doom_is_great]

They'll probably do little variations on each demon, like in Doom RPG or Project Brutality. That's what I figure.

[igg]

It'll be a mix of variations and some new ones. If they go for the multiverse route they can recycle Doom 3s enemies too.

[Cynical]

They still need an Afrit, at the very least.

[Gaia74]

we need new demons from the community:

 

like the bruiser demon, the archon of hell, the pyro demon, the diabloist, the thamuz!, annihilator, etc.

[Job]

Nightmare variants, that's how. 

[Nevander]

You sure they don't just mean twice as many on-screen at once? That's what I thought when I heard twice as many. Just double the intensity of every fight.

[Chezza]

Considering we saw a Baron of Hell with two blades I believe there will be a few brand new designs, the missing 2016 monsters and the rest variants of the same kind. It could be cheated with just making various zombie fodder. Bosses likely included.

 

I have my doubts Doom 3 monsters will return although the Wraith would make sure an interesting enemy.

 

 

[Touchdown]

7 hours ago, Nevander said:

You sure they don't just mean twice as many on-screen at once? That's what I thought when I heard twice as many. Just double the intensity of every fight.

 

The DOOM Twitter said "double the demon types".

 

 

I am not too worried yet, we'll learn more next month. But if we're speculating based on what little we know... I'm not too excited to hear it. If they really end up making a bunch of variants, that's just lazy. If there are really twice as many monster types, there's a risk a lot of them will not really bring anything new to the combat.

[Bauul]

Maybe they're being sneaky, and in the same way there were three different AI variants of the Imp in the the first game they just mean they'll be six AI variants in this one. 

[seed]

Without seeing these new enemies in action I've no idea what to make of this. So many demons require a lot of creativity from all points of view in order to use them effectively.

 

I'm just hoping they're not variations because that's just plain laziness, and that the bestiary won't end up as little more than a "comeback fest" with improvements either (by that I mean, the new enemies will be nothing but demons from previous titles, such as D64 and D3). I should mention that I'm fine with both variations and comebacks, as long as it's not excessive or cheap.

[quake92]

We need Nazi demons ! Please have them included and I will buy two copies 

[eharper256]

10 Revenant Palette Swaps Confirmed.

 

That said, at the moment, I'm fairly trusting they can pull something good out of this, since D2016 was pretty good overall.

[Duke of Pathoris]

As I said in another thread, they could take enemies from Quake because they could fit the theme quite easily.

They can also add upgrades, like how there is mancubus -> cyber mancubus there could be a third tier.

[dewmguy]

9 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

 

They can also add upgrades, like how there is mancubus -> cyber mancubus there could be a third tier.

mancubus with wheels

[Michniko]

Someone probably said this somewhere but on top of the demon "variations" they could also add the 2 or 3 other demons that were only in multiplayer,

Prowler, Harbringer and something else that I can't remember.

 

And ON TOP OF THAT I'm sure they'll be even more types of Human demons, maybe even classic Zombie and Shotgun guys.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Michniko

[MTF Sergeant]

Let's see...

 

Hmm, how about adding, a Cherub, a Maggot, A Possessed Commando, a Vulgar, a Bruiser, a couple hell hunters, a Golem, an Undead Warrior, an Iron Lich, an Ettin, an Afrit, a Centaur, a Knight Archer, a Skull Wizard and Eidolon to the existing roster? Sounds cool.

[indigotyrian]

Oh god, the Cherubs from Doom 3 fucked me up.

 

Arch-viles could be really cool if they tie into the gore system. In order to make sure enemies don't come back to life, you need to gib them, so arch-viles don't have enough of a body to work with. Like Quake's zombies, except not independent.

[DooM_RO]

I hope this means double the monster count, not double the monster types. Too many new monsters and the game could become a nightmare to balance.

[Touchdown]

If you look at the tweet I quoted somewhere above it clearly states double the monster types - twice as many types, not twice as many on screen.

[MrGlide]

I really hope they can up the monster count in game without sacraficing ai. Should be cool to see the new monsters.

[Touchdown]

The smarter the AI = The less enemies on screen, it's that simple. The reason why the original DOOM can have hundreds of monsters at once is because the AI is dumb. So you either make monsters dumb and completely redesign the game to be exactly like the original or you keep the enemy count at a reasonable level and create an illusion of overwhelming numbers.

[DooM_RO]

3 hours ago, Touchdown said:

The smarter the AI = The less enemies on screen, it's that simple. The reason why the original DOOM can have hundreds of monsters at once is because the AI is dumb. So you either make monsters dumb and completely redesign the game to be exactly like the original or you keep the enemy count at a reasonable level and create an illusion of overwhelming numbers.

 

That, and their attacks and movement speed were mostly slow and more predictable.

[VertigoOne]

Yea, I don't think more enemies on screen = automatically better Doom gameplay, especially for a game whose enemies rely more on intelligent AI for challenge in combat.

 

Try applying "intelligent AI" to a game with as many enemies on screen as Serious Sam. With that many numbers, the intelligence of an individual enemy flat out wouldn't be noticeable unless you take L4D's AI Director route. Not to say that Doom Eternal can't strike a middle ground, but to fit that many agile enemies on screen at once you'd need a very large playing area (like why most levels in Serious Sam are large stretches of flat nothing), and you can't have too many agile enemies at once without overwhelming the player. Though considering how the attack token system works as outlined in the GDC Talk, most enemies would stand around doing nothing at all. OG Doom can have large enemy counts and complex level design because its enemies are slow and simple.

 

That said, I think DE can strike a balance by having a handful of 'intelligent' enemies and a larger swarm of simple cannon fodder enemies who keep spawning in larger numbers. You could have larger amount of standard braindead rusher zombies who'll try to swarm you and attack you with simple melee swipes, which isn't very interesting, but can be when combined with other enemy types on top of making Glory Kills a temporary no-go when they'll surround you for a guaranteed hit once your i-frames are over. You could have enemies who constantly fire a stream of projectiles at you from an elevated position like non-hitscan Chaingunners (or Spidermechs to be more exact?) who can be downed with one rocket, which when combined with trickier and spongier enemies like Hell Knights and Mancubi to make encounters with them more engaging.

[snapshot]

On 7/13/2018 at 2:29 PM, dewmguy said:

mancubus with wheels

Yes please.

[Touchdown]

4 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

That, and their attacks and movement speed were mostly slow and more predictable.

 

There are actually a lot of other factors. In the original games you only had a handful of animations/actions: walk, ranged attack, sometimes melee attack, stun, death. In DOOM4 just look at how many variations of each of those actions you have. Even a simple Imp can attack in many, many different ways depending on a situation. They can move in many different ways. They get stunned/staggered in many different ways. All of those things make creatures more believable and lifelike. But just that element of unpredictability makes enemies in DOOM4 a lot more challenging, not even mentioning their advanced movement/attack patterns. Think about this: they ALREADY had to implement the whole token system to prevent all enemies from attacking at once and obliterating the player because with those advanced movement / AI elements it would be blatantly unfair. You literally cannot have a lot more enemies because either (1) they have to be lot dumber / primitive or (2) a large number of them would be just standing idle, waiting for their turn.

 

With that said...

 

1 hour ago, VertigoOne said:

Yea, I don't think more enemies on screen = automatically better Doom gameplay, especially for a game whose enemies rely more on intelligent AI for challenge in combat.

 

Try applying "intelligent AI" to a game with as many enemies on screen as Serious Sam. With that many numbers, the intelligence of an individual enemy flat out wouldn't be noticeable unless you take L4D's AI Director route. Not to say that Doom Eternal can't strike a middle ground, but to fit that many agile enemies on screen at once you'd need a very large playing area (like why most levels in Serious Sam are large stretches of flat nothing), and you can't have too many agile enemies at once without overwhelming the player. Though considering how the attack token system works as outlined in the GDC Talk, most enemies would stand around doing nothing at all. OG Doom can have large enemy counts and complex level design because its enemies are slow and simple.

 

That said, I think DE can strike a balance by having a handful of 'intelligent' enemies and a larger swarm of simple cannon fodder enemies who keep spawning in larger numbers. You could have larger amount of standard braindead rusher zombies who'll try to swarm you and attack you with simple melee swipes, which isn't very interesting, but can be when combined with other enemy types on top of making Glory Kills a temporary no-go when they'll surround you for a guaranteed hit once your i-frames are over. You could have enemies who constantly fire a stream of projectiles at you from an elevated position like non-hitscan Chaingunners (or Spidermechs to be more exact?) who can be downed with one rocket, which when combined with trickier and spongier enemies like Hell Knights and Mancubi to make encounters with them more engaging.

 

One of the ideas that I've had long before DOOM4 was even released was this: what if you apply the movie trope and make the enemy sophistication drop as their numbers increase? You don't have to make different enemies, just adjust the 'intelligence' to the amount of monsters. So if you want to have a horde, you can have a horde - it'll be a horde of simple monsters but a horde that's fair. And then, once their numbers drop, they become more careful and 'sophisticated'. Let's say 4-6 Imps would be cunning and careful but 10+ would be more reckless and primitive - different types of danger and an opportunity for a massive slaughter.

 

No idea if that would work of course, it'd have to be tested and balanced but that's some option I think.

[Zemini]

I just hope that there is at least more than 12-14 on screen like in the campaign.

[Dear Hoplite]

Wait let's think about Quake baddies that could actually show up. They likely won't but the Quake version of Pinkies would fit in darker levels like underground sections in hell if those appeared

[D88M]

They are gonna add some new ones, remove some, and add variations to those who remain.

Also was the Spidermind Olivia? When i saw the scene i thought she was dragged to hell and the master mind came through the same blood portal.

[Duke of Pathoris]

Doom wiki's list of 2016 monsters, 18 or 23 with all possessed variations.

Quote

• Campaign
• Baron of Hell
• Cacodemon
• Cyber-mancubus
• Cyberdemon
• Hell guard
• Hell knight
• Hell razer
• Imp
• Lost soul
• Mancubus
• Pinky
• Possessed
  • Possessed worker
  • Possessed scientist
  • Possessed engineer
  • Possessed soldier
  • Possessed security
• Revenant
• Spectre
• Spider Mastermind
• Summoner
• Unwilling

And the confirmed list of new monsters. Seven more so far.

Quote

New monsters

• Arachnotron
• Arch-vile
• Doomhunter
• Marauder
• Pain elemental
• Zombieman
• Unknown winged demon

There is a lot of room for more unseen monsters even if they are not just variants of past ones. Chuck in a whole bunch of possessed variants for good measure but without any entirely new monsters, I don't see much room for the extras to make up even close to twice the demons.