Fake software look in recent games

[markanini]

I've been playing Cultic and enjoying the atmosphere and mechanics a lot. My only complaint is the same as some other titles like Prodeus and Utrakill. The fake software look is very corny and I hate that the audio, including the soundtrack, has a low res filter too that I can't disable. It's also going to make this and other games that are following the trend look dated in the worst way. Compare it to this:



 

[heliumlamb]

paletteization shaders aren't corny at all and are a valid visual design decision. is it possible to overdo it in a way that makes that specific implementation "corny"? probably. same could be said for "low fidelity" audio, both sound fx and music, either intentionally or as a matter of circumstance.

listening to cultic through a video, it just sounds like they should have just run the source audio through a some different sort of bit reduction dsp, or some sort of lowpass filter/eq prior to the bit reduction. it's very "ringy".

here is the same area from ad_sepulcher in ironwail, with and without this shader based "fake software" look. (r_softemu 3 and 0, respectively)
 

Spoiler

 

 

my further opinion? who cares. i've only played one game that "forced" those design decisions upon me and it was the best video game i had played in at least 15 years.

[evil9999]

I think the same actually, but also thats the point, for me it doesnt look bad but it actually looks kinda annoying.

[dasho]

I feel the same way about the wave of "8-bit" and "16-bit" inspired indie games that used a total of 12 pixels for their main character, as if every past console only had the fidelity of an Atari 2600.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Prodeus didn't give me nearly as much of a headache as Amid Evil. I think in general that a lot of "retro" games feel off visually. I've grown tired of the whole "this game is super retro for the hell of it (and also due to budgetary constraints)" thing. It's either that or you get minimalistic "this is really super artistic (due to budgetary constraints)" visuals.

[Mr. Freeze]

Yeah it's pretty obnoxious. The "retro" shooters never actually look retro, even when compared to the games they're supposed to be imitating. 

[Sonikkumania]

It's getting old. That's my opinion.

[ZeMystic]

Dusk had an option to turn off the majority of the retro features and adjust it to your liking which was pretty cool. I don't dislike the majority of retro options and kinda prefer them.

I run my modded Daggerfall with a heavy set of fake software features, which I prefer compared to the high resolution.

Spoiler

 

[markanini]

5 hours ago, heliumlamb said:

paletteization shaders aren't corny at all and are a valid visual design decision. is it possible to overdo it in a way that makes that specific implementation "corny"? probably. same could be said for "low fidelity" audio, both sound fx and music, either intentionally or as a matter of circumstance.

listening to cultic through a video, it just sounds like they should have just run the source audio through a some different sort of bit reduction dsp, or some sort of lowpass filter/eq prior to the bit reduction. it's very "ringy".

here is the same area from ad_sepulcher in ironwail, with and without this shader based "fake software" look. (r_softemu 3 and 0, respectively)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

my further opinion? who cares. i've only played one game that "forced" those design decisions upon me and it was the best video game i had played in at least 15 years.

Are you saying it would be better if that look in your screenshots was the only look available for Quake? Because that's the context of my criticism. I know however in reality there is a lot of choice in graphical settings available in Quake ports so I'm not sure how your response relates to forced stuff in recent shooters.

 

You can disable the palettized shader in Cultic. However, the limited palette used for all the art can't be "disabled".
 

[Herr Dethnout]

You know, that something that I hate about the "retro styled" games, making it look "retro" with a bunch of shaders without knowing why it looks great in first place.

Let's make a comparison:

Spoiler

Although the map and VFX looks good, what's up with that glitched colored sprites? It looks like a lazy effort to look "retro" rather than giving a good sense of design to the sprites.

The case of Prodeus is even worse because is a High Graphics game with a low res filter... It looks like a Unreal Engine game in a 640x480.

Not saying that that games are bad (never played lol), but visually looks pretty bland.

The oppossite will be Ion Fury and WRATH, possibly because a lot of big names of the modding community (Doom, Quake, BUILD) was involved but man, they look as actually 90-2000's shooters.
 

Spoiler

Also
 

 

On 10/19/2022 at 7:08 PM, markanini said:

lol

Edited October 22, 2022 by Herr Dethnout : fixed Cultic pic

[ReaperAA]

3 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

The opposite will be Ion Fury and WRATH, possibly because a lot of big names of the modding community (Doom, Quake, BUILD) was involved but man, they look as actually 90-2000's shooters.

 

Agreed. When it comes to visuals, stuff like Ion Fury, Wrath, Supplice and A.W.O.L seem like the ones that actually got the visuals rights.

[taufan99]

8 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Let's make a comparison:

Just me, or is the Cultic screenshot glitched? Because I've kept reloading and only the first few pixels of the top side appear.

[Herr Dethnout]

3 minutes ago, taufan99 said:

Just me, or is the Cultic screenshot glitched? Because I've kept reloading and only the first few pixels of the top side appear.

Yes it was a uploading error. Will fix it.

[heliumlamb]

1 minute ago, markanini said:

Are you saying it would be better if that look in your screenshots was the only look available for Quake? Because that's the context of my criticism. I know however in reality there is a lot of choice in graphical settings available in Quake ports.

 

You can disable the palettized shader in Cultic. However, the limited palette used for all the art can't be "disabled".
 

i'm not saying that it would look "better", just merely saying that it exists. it's a preference. quake at 256 colors is vivid with a good contrast, it was designed that way. darks are pitch, and all of those greens, browns, blues and purples are vivid.

next time i go out and see someone's painted mural up on concrete while not operating a hazardous metal death machine, i will count the colors used. i can guarantee you it will be less than 10, probably less than 5 depending on the type of mural. art (which can be interactive and on a computational device) can be done in whatever way the individual(s) creating it wish to.

it does seem to me that most (absolutely not all) implementations of palette shaders and the like are being implemented with the same sort of "omg so retro!" mindset that we have seen with the "retro pixel" 2d games of the late '00s-'10s. but not every instance is going to be a "cop-out".
 

 

i feel like a more apt allusion would be with "synthwave" or the "lo-fi house" (or as i call it, "tape hiss tech house") that really started showing up in the '10s. taking an inspiration from the past, but only at surface level. that surface level inspiration becomes especially evident to those who are really familiar with house music in its many forms and styles or the synthpop/italo disco/industrial that synthwave had claimed to be inspired by,

[Biodegradable]

I don't care what anyone else thinks, Cultic's colour palette is fucking awesome and complements its mood, atmosphere and art style brilliantly. I just fucking love how it looks!

Spoiler

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Biodegradable

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

40 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

I don't care what anyone else things, Cultic's colour palette is fucking awesome and complements its mood, atmosphere and art style brilliantly. I just fucking love how it looks!

  Hide contents

 

The only thing that stands out to me as being "off" based on those screenshots is the pistol in the first two shots. Minor nitpick though, I really dig it. I haven't checked this game out too much yet, but I will thanks to your screenshots. I love the last one.

[markanini]

40 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

I don't care what anyone else things, Cultic's colour palette is fucking awesome and complements its mood, atmosphere and art style brilliantly. I just fucking love how it looks!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A truecolor shader would achieve something very similar. The dev did, with all due respect, something roundabout. It coincides with how devs dealt with limited hardware resources 25 years ago, but that's shallow thing to do just for nostalgia. If anything it sells short the more substantial effort put into the mechanics and balancing that make the game fun to actually play.

 

45 minutes ago, heliumlamb said:

next time i go out and see someone's painted mural up on concrete while not operating a hazardous metal death machine, i will count the colors used. i can guarantee you it will be less than 10, probably less than 5 depending on the type of mural. art (which can be interactive and on a computational device) can be done in whatever way the individual(s) creating it wish to.

If you are seeing color banding on a murial you might be hallucinating...

[Graf Zahl]

6 hours ago, heliumlamb said:

paletteization shaders aren't corny at all and are a valid visual design decision. is it possible to overdo it in a way that makes that specific implementation "corny"? probably. same could be said for "low fidelity" audio, both sound fx and music, either intentionally or as a matter of circumstance.

 

 

These things only get done by people who are stuck in the past and see their antiquated view on aesthetics as an absolute.

For me every such game is a no-go by default. I can understand it for old titles, but for god's sake: Please allow the end user to decide what they want.

Should I ever purchase a game with such a look and find out it cannot be undone I'd request an immediate refund.

 

As for sounds, lo-fi can even be more annoying, especially if that means using a crappy old two-channel stereo mixer.

Of course this is more a problem with modern remasters or source ports of old titles, but not having 5.1 sound on such title can be really disappointing. Ion Fury is the most prominent victim I can remember - since it's based on EDuke32 it also uses the same sound engine - original vintage 90's code with virtually no upgrades whatsoever over the last 20+ years.

 

[Bridgeburner56]

9 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Please allow the end user to decide what they want.

Or you could let the artist create what they want. No one is forcing you to partake.

For everyone complaining about some perceived global trend in indie fps design tropes, watching Realms Deep will show you that there is anything but. More variety than you'd know what to do with.

[Osmosis Bones]

I never really had an issue with the look of neo-boomer shooters. In my eyes they're more or less a window into what could've been. I do understand the issue of the games having retro graphics but then everything else like the effects and post proc. look way too good, thus breaking the suspension of disbelief

[knifeworld]

I mostly like it, but it can both be overdone or copy actual 90's games too much, especially Quake.
Personally I think Wrath and Dusk do it nicer than others, Cultic looks cool but might have gone heavier on the look than other examples, and sadly runs at like 5 fps on my laptop.

I just saw this video last night and I actually like how far they went with it here because I think it fits the textures and colours:

For an example of a game that has a good chunky software look and isn't a Dusk clone, or modern "Quake clone", check out Devil Daggers, it's f*cking awesome.
 

[Graf Zahl]

1 hour ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

Or you could let the artist create what they want. No one is forcing you to partake.

 

Here's the thing. I spent several years in jobs where I acted as a producer of small-scale commercial games. And the one thing that always ended up in a disaster is to give the artists control over such decisions. It happened several times where I had to step in and tell them that they had to change their approach because it did not work. Sorry if that offends you, but if you release a commercial product you have to serve the market, not your artistic aspirations. If they are not in alignment you'll have a problem. And that's always a very fine line to balance.

 

The main problem is not making a game with low resolution assets - the problems start if you go out of your way to emulate the limitations of old hardware. I couldn't name a single title where such an approach didn't feel tacky.

 

1 hour ago, knifeworld said:

I just saw this video last night and I actually like how far they went with it here because I think it fits the textures and colours: 

 

 

That one's hard to judge because it's just a video. On the one hand the textures have very much detail despite their size, but on the other hand what this video does not show is that fake software look with all the drawbacks that normally entails.

 

 

[HeatedChocolate]

11 hours ago, markanini said:

Utrakill

This is only tangentially related but iirc there's an actual in-lore reason why the game looks the way it does.

 

From the description of the Sentry: "...Most machines will only render a simplified approximation of their visual surroundings for faster processing speed..."
Like that really excuses it, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[taufan99]

2 minutes ago, HeatedChocolate said:

This is only tangentially related but iirc there's an actual in-lore reason why the game looks the way it does.

 

From the description of the Sentry: "...Most machines will only render a simplified approximation of their visual surroundings for faster processing speed..."
Like that really excuses it, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

I actually like how several developers make up a lore to explain tech limitations within their game(s). Reminds me of that one Quake 1 expansion pack (Scourge of Armagon IIRC?), where janky monsters that can be summoned as allies are given their own lore as to why they behave that way.

[heliumlamb]

17 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Here's the thing. I spent several years in jobs where I acted as a producer of small-scale commercial games. And the one thing that always ended up in a disaster is to give the artists control over such decisions. It happened several times where I had to step in and tell them that they had to change their approach because it did not work. Sorry if that offends you, but if you release a commercial product you have to serve the market, not your artistic aspirations. If they are not in alignment you'll have a problem. And that's always a very fine line to balance.

 

 

a good thing is that it's getting more and more viable/practical for games to be made by one human (ie: singular vision rather than multiple visions from a team) from start to the end. trenchbroom and godot (with qodot) have proven and will continue to prove themselves as valuable and viable tools for human expression for the forseeable future.

[Mr. Freeze]

Regarding Ion Transphobe, it had an entire team of industry veterans working on it and wasn't the property of some dude in Eastern Europe slaving away on his 2006 Thinkpad. It just has more experience in the visual department compared to say, Hrot. 

[markanini]

On 10/20/2022 at 12:26 PM, heliumlamb said:

 

a good thing is that it's getting more and more viable/practical for games to be made by one human (ie: singular vision rather than multiple visions from a team) from start to the end. trenchbroom and godot (with qodot) have proven and will continue to prove themselves as valuable and viable tools for human expression for the forseeable future.

Specialized tools for achieving a retro look actually takes more man hours to work with. It also limits the reach of your game if you want to talk about things that are provable.

In contrast, the fast paced shooters that we love from the 90's were straight up AAA titles with cutting edge graphics made by large studios. Sorry if I'm killing anyone's warm and cozy feelings about this but it's a fact. The recent wave of indie shooters are mostly doing something that is out of touch with the titles that inspired them.

Edited December 21, 2022 by markanini

[PKr]

If the main reason for "retro" looks is the low budget and it's just about the means to finish the game you wanted to create, then I am totally fine with it as long as the game is good. If it's for "artistic" reasons, then again I am totally fine with it as long as the game is solid. If however it's only about "art" and the "game" part of the game is secondary then it's a hard pass for me.

 

That actually applies to all graphical approaches, not just "retro" graphics. For example the recent game called Scorn tried to go all in into "art", but then the gameplay boils down to walking around and that's pretty much all there is to the game - that's something I personally don't want to deal with. The game looks awesome and all, but... Gameplay is the king.

 

The gameplay, the performance and the functionality are things that matter the most. The "art" part of games is secondary.

Edited October 20, 2022 by PKr

[Bridgeburner56]

7 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

always ended up in a disaster is to give the artists control over such decisions

Perhaps these were marketed poorly or just bad games, because there's been success after resounding success for indie developers making what they are passionate about. Cultic has a 99% postive rating after over 1000 reviews on Steam in less than a week. All of New Blood's games were rated at overwhelmingly positive (I think Gloomwood has just slipped to very positive oh noes). Prodeus is 95% positve after almost 3500 reviews. 

The market has spoken and it likes these products.
 

[StodgyAyatollah]

I thought the palette in Cultic would bother me a lot more than it does (it is overkill imo) but from my time with the demo it only annoyed me a little bit. It's not a game I'm going to rush out and buy and I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a factor but it is a smaller one. I actually prefer using the filters in Prodeus. It's certainly far form my biggest complaints with that game. As for games that have handled it well I think of Dusk and Hrot. Both have cohesive art design independent of any filters and both have a simple slider for how much of that software chunkiness you want. Generally if the textures are lower res and I'm not forced to use texture filtering it's "retro" enough for me. Anything beyond that can become pretty hit or miss. In the end though I am glad there is some experimentation going on with aesthetics, even if it doesn't always nail the landing.

 

13 hours ago, dasho said:

I feel the same way about the wave of "8-bit" and "16-bit" inspired indie games that used a total of 12 pixels for their main character, as if every past console only had the fidelity of an Atari 2600.

This is something that annoys me infinitely more. There's such an over saturation of this crap sprite work out there right now. It reminds me of all the hideous homogenized corpo art we see these days.