Broken kill (and item?) count in Heretic?

[Adam Duży]

Hello there, I'm doomer for few months but it's Heretic that brings me here.

Recently I'm playing Heretic for the first time, blind-running everything trying to get 100% kills, items and secrets; intermission screen after E2M9 (in attachment) surprised me - how could I get kills and items counts above upper limits? I didn't find any info about it in the internet.

I have suspicion that maybe items dropped from enemies (e.g. Tome of Power from Disciple of D'Sparil in this case) are taken into account, so I got 35/34, but I have no idea about kills count.

In attachments there is also save of this game, just step to exit gate.

EDIT: additional info - I'm playing heretic.exe in DOSBox.

Any guesses?

HTICSAV4.rar

Edited April 19, 2023 by Adam Duży : Additional info

[FistMarine]

Hi there. I can help you. I'm going to assume you are playing the original Heretic registered v1.0. Right? I can confirm the exact same thing has happened to me before. I know for sure what causes the items count to inflate. It's indeed caused by items sometimes dropped by certain enemies. Disciples can drop the Tome of Power, Iron Liches can drop the Morph Ovum and Maulotaurs can drop the Mystic Urn. Assuming you collected all the items present in the level, you will end up with more than the maximum amount of items in the level.

 

As for the kills count, my only guess is the behavior of the Firemace. This weapon has a 75% chance to appear in a level and its spawn spots are replaced by monsters (Weredragons in E2 and Ophidians in E3), so you will encounter extra monsters in levels containing them. Maybe that's why there were a few times I ended up with more kills in a level. You can read more on Doomwiki here: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Firemace

Quote

In Heretic version 1.0, surplus mace spots would spawn other objects, depending on the episode number of the map: Disciples of D'Sparil in E1, Weredragons in E2, Ophidians in E3, and (through a bug) Shadowspheres in the E4 secret slot. The tomed shots were also allowed to instantly kill iron liches in this version. However, all later versions removed the substitution effect (not unlikely due to its potential for introducing sneaky map bugs), placing nothing on the extra mace spots, and gave iron liches resistance to the tomed mace balls.

Oh yeah and as the wiki says, be careful when trying to get all kills/items/secrets in E3M6! There is a bug in original v1.0 release, where you can't get the last secret (containing the last item too) because of a spawned Ophidian that prevents the secret from becoming accessible. This has happened to me before and my guess is the Firemace is supposed to spawn in that secret place for the secret to be accessible but in my last playthroughs of Heretic v1.0, I didn't have this luck, as while I had the Firemace spawned in the level, it spawned in another place and the secret was still unreachable. The secret is reachable in latest Heretic v1.3. https://doomwiki.org/wiki/E3M6:_The_Halls_of_Fear_(Heretic)

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In version 1.0 of the game, the Firemace replacement effect may cause an Ophidian to spawn in secret sector 11, which starts out with its floor and ceiling at the same height. Walking across linedef 641 is supposed to lower the floor, to give access to both the Firemace (if spawned) and a Bag of Holding. Unfortunately, the Ophidian makes the sector stuck as it tries to move down (the sound effect plays, but no movement takes place), preventing 100% killing of enemies, 100% collection of items, and 100% finding of secrets, all at once. As the replacement no longer occours in Shadow of the Serpent Riders, this is fixed in the v1.3 release, at the expense of the enemy.

 

BTW, I have original CD versions of Heretic Registered v1.0 (dated 27/12/1994) and Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders v1.3 (dated 22/03/1996). I can offer further details if needed (such as accessing the hidden E4M1 map, which was later moved to E6M3 in Heretic v1.3) when I will try your save later today and if remember correctly, I still have my saves from two years ago when I played Heretic in DOSBox last time, which was for the DWMegawad Club. So I can try to see if the last secret in E3M6 is possible to get in Heretic v1.0 if the Firemace spawns in the correct place.

 

Hope you find this information helpful!

Edited April 20, 2023 by FistMarine

[ASD]

Speaking of E3M6 and item count, don't miss the flask inside the alcove next to the yellow key door. It's bugged in both versions but still reachable if you run into the wall.

 

[FistMarine]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot to mention that bugged Flask inside the wall in E3M6. I remember getting it in my latest playthrough by bumping into the wall to perform the grab glitch, as in prior playthroughs I ended up skipping this flask after reading it is placed outside the map. If Heretic gets remastered one day, I hope this flask bug gets fixed.

 

BTW, I just tested your saved game. Nice stuff! It looks like you've got full on everything and plenty of inventory items. I stepped into the portal and got the same results as in your screenshot. Then I found my old 2021 Heretic saves (from my last playthrough, I had one save done per each level) and compared with the e2m9 save. Interestingly, I got different results. Other than having almost full ammo on everything, after stepping into the exit portal, I get 120/121 kills, despite killing everyone. I clearly remember getting all the kills in this level when I played (most likely I had gotten everything in first try and I didn't feel the need to reload save), so I'm not sure where that missing kill comes from. Typing the "massacre" cheat to kill all monsters, did nothing, as I still had 120/121 kills at end. I'm curious on what difficulty you played? I played on fourth skill setting. Although I don't think difficulty matters here and there seems to be something strange going on. My guess is it still has to do with the Firemace behavior present in the initial v1.0 release, where extra monsters are spawned at the Firemace spawn locations.

 

If anyone knows a better explanation of what's happening with the kills counter in maps where a Firemace is present, please post into the topic.

[Adam Duży]

Thanks for so expanded response! And sorry for replying that late (full time job takes much time huh).

 

Yes, I'm playing version 1.0, and monsters spawned by firemace spots seems to be legitible explanation, that's weird mechanics xd.

 

I'm playing default difficulty = 3, and yeah, that's too easy (most likely due to my Doom experience), so I hardly have to use any items or stronger weapons (and – surprisingly – crossbow seems to be most satysfying and fun to use, though it's one of weaker weapons; feels kinda like shotgun from Doom), and since hoarding things is strong instinct inside me when I don't know what I'll meet in following levels I finish most of levels fully stacked :D.

After finishing episode 3 (I just finished E3M9) I'll probably play whole game on difficulty = 4.

Hm, I checked on Doomwiki, and it says that in e2m9 there are 98 monsters on difficulty = 3 (that's so much less than 121), and 117 on difficulty = 4... it seems that amount of monsters was reduced in Heretic: SotSR in comparison to v1.0. Maybe I'll do some investigation in some time :D (e.g. comparising both WADs in UDB).

[FistMarine]

Hi. No worries and I'm sorry for my late response as well.

 

Have you finished the game in the meantime? Here are two ways to reach the hidden E4M1 in original Heretic v1.0:

1) Use command line parameters by writing this: HERETIC.EXE -WARP 4 1 -SKILL 4

2) Type ENGAGE41 during the game to be warped on E4M1. It doesn't matter what episode you chose, however the difficulty setting is remembered.

Please note that the hidden E4M1 map doesn't have an exit! Also the map was later moved into E6M3 slot in Heretic v1.3, so if you intend to access the hidden E6 maps in that version (E6M1 and E6M2 are actual Single Player levels!), the procedure is the same as above, except you write 6 instead of 4. Example WARP 6 1 and ENGAGE61 respectively.

 

About the amount of monsters, I don't think the enemy count was altered between any Heretic versions. I rather think the extra monsters are caused by the Firemace spawn spots, due to the behavior I mentioned above. But then I still don't understand what causes the monster count to be off by one, either less or more enemies killed than the ones present in the level. It seems this bug is caused by loading the saved game in the level containing the Firemace. Otherwise, if the level is played in one go, it should have the correct amount of enemies killed when you finish, assuming you killed everyone before you exit the level.

 

I also don't know what's the behavior of Heretic v1.2 since I don't have that version (I'm assuming the Firemace oddities were fixed in v1.2) but all I know is if you intend to revisit Heretic using the latest v1.3 release (Shadow of the Serpent Riders), then that version doesn't have the weird quirks caused by the Firemace and you can also get the E3M6 secret without the Ophidian spawned inside the wall. However, the Quartz Flask is still placed inside the wall in E3M6 but at least you can grab it by bumping into the wall near the yellow door.

 

If you enjoyed Heretic, I highly recommend checking Hexen as well! Let me know if you need any help with the game, in case you get stuck at some point!

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

2 hours ago, FistMarine said:

But then I still don't understand what causes the monster count to be off by one, either less or more enemies killed than the ones present in the level. It seems this bug is caused by loading the saved game in the level containing the Firemace.

I haven't done a code check to back this up (I'm not even sure offhand if the monster spawning part of the firemace randomizer is still in the 1.3 source just commented out or if they removed it completely), but if there's an additional bug when you reload a save, I wouldn't be surprised if the game is running the randomizer again on reload.