Doom 4 Resurrected?

[QuaketallicA]

 

 

I landed up on this much circulated video of the cancelled Doom 4, before it morphed into 2016, and someone in the comments suggested this could work as a spin-off, which got me thinking. What if we got a new Doom game that is set as a prequel to Eternal, from the P.O.V. of the ARC members as Earth falls to the demons? Sounds like it would be a great idea for a game. The last two Dooms have been amazing, but it would make for good contrast. Those are a total power fantasy for the player, with minimal story, maximum gameplay. They could pivot to a radically different style of gameplay for the spinoff, since you're no longer Doom Guy but one of the lowly soldiers who is fated to fail. All you can do is retreat, and hope to survive to see another day. Something with a real, post-apocalyptic vibe like the future war segments of the Terminator films, where the Demons are just as menacing as the machines in those films. I think that could totally work and make for a great game. What do you think? Would you be interested?

 

 

[whatup876]

I always thought a lot of Doom 4's ideas could be saved but "seperate": Pick apart different parts of it and put each or so in a different game.

Because D4 felt so detached, even from Doom 3.

I like to think of Doom as a versatile series that a lot can be done with; Part of why i feel mixed with the inclusion of "lore/universe" when Doom looks more fun as a "blank canvas", sort of.

(plus, there's a lot of cut content, concept art, unused ideas etc in the series that could be saved first: Sure, there's fan mods that do that, BUT in the Official grand scheme of things, i think it'd make more sense to focus on the really cool stuff that deserves it and then sneak in the more controversial parts in a way that makes someone go "well, at least we also got that other thing we'd like more")

 

I once wrote how Doom 4 could've been done as a sequel to Doom 3 and most of it revolved around "Hideous Destructor mixed with DeimosRemus' demons designs".

I'm not even sure if i've ever posted it as a Doomworld post, so i'll link it to Tumblr but it's there.

 

Not sure if it'd fit into the Doom Eternal universe because in a way, the Slayer games are like an "opposite" branch in the "Doom tree", to the branch that includes Doom 3.

A Doom 4 would be to D3 what Eternal is to 2016.

If anything: An expansion or spin-off where you play as an ARC soldier would still take some stuff from Eternal but with different weapons, weapon mods, inventory items, power ups, upgrades and even new enemies, level design features, puzzles, hazards, bosses etc.

Similarly, the same could be the case with a campaign centered around a Sentinel warrior.

Both as excuses to add more to the modern games' formula and see what else can be done with the style of games.

 

DE goes for a certain art direction that is devoid of horror and eerieness: Because if anything, YOU are the horror.

To play as an "even more DOOMed" soldier, you'd probably ignore most of the art direction and lore.

At the very least, you could come up with cool ideas for demons such as surreal designs, weird lore, specific gameplay ideas that make you go "oh shit" and so much more that could fit "Doom in general" but not specifically the Slayer version of Doom.

Then again, people say 2016 and Eternal feel different from each other. (plus, Doom is not as consistent as people think it is)

 

Honestly, because of that "you can do a lot with Doom" part i always bring up: you should try both an ARC soldier campaign and a "salvaged D4" so people still get the idea of how things can be different from each other, while also how they can be justified and each have their own appeal.

Edited April 20 by whatup876 : fixes

[Zemini]

Not to sound negative, I would rather they spend time focusing on what made Doom Eternal/2016 great and not spend dev time making a CoD clone.  Also, to play Doom as anyone BUT the Doom Marine/Guy/Slayer just doesn't appeal to me.  If they want to create another super hero in the Doom universe, fine, but im not interested in a Doom 3 hell on earth survival shooter either.

 

EDIT:  Will say this however, this idea may work better in a Coop campaign, but even still, there hasn't been many FPS coop campaigns that were spectacular in the last decade or so.

 

 

 

[whatup876]

I also think it's worth mentiong: A Doom game can still work when it's slow or "tactical".

One reason being the "sandbox" behind it.

If you have stuff like level design with exploration, puzzles, hazards, even platforming and combine that with a diverse set of weapons, items, enemies, power ups, resources etc.

It could still feel complex.

People usually hate COD for being braindead simple (as the series that helped with streamlining the FPS genre to the masses) while Doom always has its complex elements and even the new games feel like they took inspiration from other games. (like Turok for the platforming)

That's probably why i even brought up Hideous Destructor in the first place: too complex but at least it's complex.

 

There's also the factor of being a series with sci-fi and fantasy elements, so the setting doesn't have to suffer from "realism".

[ALilGrayBoi]

A resurrection of Doom 4 would be cool. As long as it’s not marketed as a “Doom” game. The reason many people (myself included) don’t like doom 3 that much is because it’s so detached from the other games. If it’s advertised like a neat sci-fi cod shooter under the doom name than I think people would be ok with it. But if it’s hyped up as the next power fantasy doom game than there’s gonna be angry fans

 

Basically what I’m saying is, market it as a spinoff not a main title

Edited April 23 by ALilGrayBoi

[whatup876]

Or at least a Doom spin-off.

D3 for better or worse was still inspired by the Doom premise, which isn't the same as Quake 2 originally being a new IP.

 

Besides Doom always being a series people argue over "what it is about", i also feel it can get away with some level of detachment because of both the existence of the best modding scene possible and even the notion of "the story doesn't matter that much" meaning "you can interpret the setting differently".

Which is part of why i think most people accept the new games, which also differ from the classics in their own ways.

 

And again, you don't have to make it "COD like" because that would mean really boring shit like 2 weapon limts, when a "slow, tactical" Doom could still have a varied set of guns for example.

You can also think of cool features to add like certain creative weapons or enemies, which is also part of that "sandbox" thing i mention.

Or use the game in general as an excuse for new ideas that "suit Doom in general but not the Slayer games".

For example, we could try "Hexen/Powerslave/Turok" style level design or armor with different types like "this resists fire, this resists explosions" etc.

[QuaketallicA]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:49 PM, Zemini said:

Not to sound negative, I would rather they spend time focusing on what made Doom Eternal/2016 great and not spend dev time making a CoD clone.  Also, to play Doom as anyone BUT the Doom Marine/Guy/Slayer just doesn't appeal to me.  If they want to create another super hero in the Doom universe, fine, but im not interested in a Doom 3 hell on earth survival shooter either.

 

EDIT:  Will say this however, this idea may work better in a Coop campaign, but even still, there hasn't been many FPS coop campaigns that were spectacular in the last decade or so.

 

Well the original "Doom 4" project strikes me more as a successor to Doom 3. I'd hardly call that a "CoD clone," since it would probably still feature many different weapons (not a 2 gun limit) and actual health/armor not regenerating health. It would just be a much more grounded, narrative-driven approach which would make for good contrast to the recent games. It could take inspiration from series like Metro, Far Cry, or Terminator: Resistance. It could be just as much about scavenging and surviving as it is about shooting. It could go back to a more survival horror direction, but still feeling enough action movie-like to still feel like Doom.

 

I don't see how they can top Doom Eternal. That game is perfect, and with the two Ancient Gods expansions, they take the formula that began in 2016 to its fullest. Both in story, and in gameplay, I think they've taken that excellent formula as far as it can go. Any follow-up that is less than the perfection that is Eternal, will inevitably seem anti-climactic. (Kind of like how Mortal Kombat 1 is a little disappointing to some only because MK 11 set the bar so high). That's why I suggested perhaps it's time to revisit the Doom 3 school of Dooming, and having a protagonist who is not the great Slayer but a lowly marine, which would actually be more in line with the original Doom Guy, as he was envisioned. Have a more serious, gritty tone rather than the fun, almost comedic tone at times. Not that I have a preference for one style over the other; they're both great. It just would provide good contrast since we've done a lot of the other style in recent years.

[QuaketallicA]

On 4/22/2024 at 4:19 PM, whatup876 said:

I also think it's worth mentiong: A Doom game can still work when it's slow or "tactical".

One reason being the "sandbox" behind it.

If you have stuff like level design with exploration, puzzles, hazards, even platforming and combine that with a diverse set of weapons, items, enemies, power ups, resources etc.

It could still feel complex.

People usually hate COD for being braindead simple (as the series that helped with streamlining the FPS genre to the masses) while Doom always has its complex elements and even the new games feel like they took inspiration from other games. (like Turok for the platforming)

That's probably why i even brought up Hideous Destructor in the first place: too complex but at least it's complex.

 

There's also the factor of being a series with sci-fi and fantasy elements, so the setting doesn't have to suffer from "realism".

 

It would be interesting to see a "tactical" Doom game, but I am skeptical if that would really work well, only because the tactical genre of Rainbow Six and SWAT is a rather niche market, and even Doom 3 is still to some degree an action game.

 

In the mid-00s the tactical genre got streamlined so that friendly a.i. controls only required one of a few different options--games like Rainbow 6 Vegas, Star Wars Republic Commando, or Brothers in Arms. However, in this genre of games, at times the directions were so simplistic and obvious, that it made the a.i. characters seem stupid for not automatically doing those things themselves. Actually one of the major innovations that Call of Duty 2 and 4 added was precisely the fact that the friendly a.i. didn't need to be hand-held like a baby and could handle themselves in firefights and seem competent without micro-management from the player.

 

I wouldn't really call Doom "complex." Mil-sim games are complex. Way too complex that they're off-putting to me. Doom on the other hand has a beautiful simplicity to it that makes it instantly obvious how to play the game and how to figure things out. No tutorials, no explanations needed. You figure out the game just by playing it and discovering that you can get chainsaws and berserk packs, that secrets can be found. I think you're referring to the non-linear level design vs CoD being linear, but I don't know if being non-linear is necessarily more complex to play, just more interesting, with more options on re-play. There are actually a couple of the Black Ops games that, while still linear, don't feel usual corridor-like and actually offer wider open combat areas and multiple lanes to traverse down. Black Ops 2 campaign even has a rudimentary style of secret areas.

[QuaketallicA]

On 4/22/2024 at 10:31 PM, ALilGrayBoi said:

Basically what I’m saying is, market it as a spinoff not a main title

 

I agree. I think it would work best as a spinoff, focused on some random soldier, not the godly Slayer.

[Murdoch]

8 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

 

I agree. I think it would work best as a spinoff, focused on some random soldier, not the godly Slayer.

 

I have often thought the same. The feel of this canceled game could still work in the current universe, and introduce a new, less super-powered protagonist who needs to reply more on wits and good training than supernatural powers. You could also back off the intensity of the demons themselves to make it work if need be - they send the stronger guys after the Slayer, the lower ranked ones against the various pockets of resistance about the world. It would be a perfect companion game.

[whatup876]

I like to think that, with a weaker protagonist, you can still send in powerful demons and specially with new abilities like "healer demon that heals demons and itself by stealing your health".

you just need stuff like good level design/encounters and maybe give the player the right tools.

Even some occasional power ups, so you'd have a chance to beat a demon that would otherwise do something people would call "total fucking bullshit" if it was in any other game.

 

And depending on how horror focused it gets, you need a really cool, creative art direction that plays with the demons' designs or even what Hell looks like and how it affects Earth.

It's one of my arguements related to giving Doom a "universe": there's always gonna be an idea or two that sound "fucking awesome" but contradict a set of rules, that also weren't always there to begin with.

 

Like i said, the idea of both Doom 4 and playing as an ARC soldier feel like seperate projects for this reason.

One could've been tweaked to feel like an idea "hell on earth" sequel to Doom 3 while the other would be an expansion for Eternal, to still explore the formula with new ideas.

Remember that some of the Slayer's tools are still UAC based, so an ARC soldier would at worst be a "diet Doomslayer" but still have double jump and stuff like that.

 

i've seen people suggest D3 having a "remake" to make it fit in the new universe when that game is clearly made with its take on the setting in mind and since day one.

I prefer D3 just getting a proper re-release that BFG edition and the rest should've been and any new idea be set for a follow up, be it a new game or expansion.

If people already dislike D3 and prefer the Slayer games, they could just have more of the Slayer games in general.

Then you have people that like D3 and even modders who did interesting stuff like the Phobos mod: they could've been consulted over how to handle D3.

 

That's probably why i'm not that into the Quake Champions reindition of the D3 armor: its differences come off as making D3 fit into the new games.

It reminds me of this mindset of "D3 needs to be more like 2016/DE" when if anything, it's better to treat the 2 as "opposite branches" of the Doom tree or 2 sides of the Doom coin.

At the very least, QC's armor being different could justify a new design that is to the original D3 armor what Eternal's version of the Praetor suit is to 2016's: give it to a D3 follow up and maybe do another thing with player skins or something.

 

Also, by mil-sims, i might be mixing up terminologies or misrepresenting examples.

I was specifically talking about that dark era of FPS games taking the wrong notes from Halo and Half-Life, where the only 2 things that require bit of challenge are reloading and maybe scope useage.

But besides linear level design, you also had barely interesting weapon or enemy variety or resource management.

A "grounded, tactical" Doom would still have weird sci-fi/fantasy elements and gameplay elements related to level design, resources and a variety of weapons, enemies, items etc.

Part of why i mention the "sandbox" part.

But this can also tie to how people associate these games with "speed" when this also brings up another whole subject like Quake SP vs MP or how ALWAYS_RUN became the default to most players etc.

 

The marketing would be important because it should be less "OBJECTIVE: SURVIVE" and more "be creative with how you take care of demons".

Give people the idea of a sandbox game where you might even be able to do weird exploits, even if you end up making it "Youtuber/Streamer bait".

Or if the game being gritty/dark means the marketing will feel a bit different.

You also can't do the "you don't need to be a Slayer" style marketing for 2 obvious reasons: People already know it's a different formula and that message can be taken in a wrong context.

[ApprihensivSoul]

Doom 3 already had the premise of you being a regular human in a way the other games did not, so the Doom 4 premise does work better in that context. That's one of the reasons I treat Doom 3 as a fundamentally different setting than the old games: "What if there wasn't a Doom Slayer?"

 

I'd be happy to see that expanded into a earth-based shooter, but, while I think linearity overall is underrated, I dislike the tube formula. It didn't work with Doom 3 particularly well, and it would work in sprawling cities with squad-based tactics even less. But a kind of Rainbow Six-lite system (more simplified, actiony controls, but still weighty combat and consequences,) I think would be a great model for a Doom game, and using skyscrapers, warehouses, factories and sewer systems as the dungeon model for that kind of gameplay and demons as the antagonists could be both a power fantasy and truly frightening for more careless players. 

So yeah, a sandbox, but in the ImSim, not the Open World, context, with stand alone levels similar to Thief, and a mission structure similar to something like either Freedom Fighters (on the low end) or XCom (if you really want to get detailed) and the premise being taking fireteams in and completing objective-based raids on infested locations would work very well.

 

Spoiler

Build on Doom 3's killing of multiple protagonists by having all the deaths be canon too, every time you die you're a new marine. Not "Permadeath" in a roguelike sense, since you still have access to the same equipment or such, but in a Destroy all Humans way where you get a new name and number each time. That would give some minor weight to the conflict as well.

 

[whatup876]

58 minutes ago, ApprihensivSoul said:

old games: "What if there wasn't a Doom Slayer?"

Doom Slayer is not so much "old games" beside the canonicity of him being Doomguy.

Still a different version of the character and one that sort of has outside influences: ranging from the Doom comic to possibly Death Battle or other memes related to Doomguy.

 

But with how people expect D3 to be followed up with, i've seen suggestions range from System Shock to FEAR.

Going back to my "Doom tree" examples, it can shows potential branches of that D3 branch.

I guess even the same can apply to 2016/Eternal like a game with a bigger focus on melee based combat to enhance the character-action comparisons or one that focuses more on platforming and mobility.

[ApprihensivSoul]

The version of the timeline that makes the most sense to me is this: The "Hell" of the setting is more or less the hub for several different worlds, and when the DoomGuy of the classic games wound up in there, in his wanderings he stumbled across several others, including the current one. Doom 3 takes place then in the past of the current setting, before he arrived in it. I tend to be the sort of person who is willing to change my theories on a moment's notice for most canon revelations, but that's what seems to fit what I've seen thus far in the plot. Thus I figured any Doom 4 instalment would be in that mold as well. (I've also long held a premise in my mind that adapts the Doom RPG to a system shock mold, that would be in the same setting, but it certainly wouldn't be Doom 4.)

 

 

(Bear in mind, I have not finished the DLC for Eternal due to, of all things, a change in computer, rather than any issues with the content, so there are obviously possible spoilers I've avoided thus far, though that's more or less my responsibility,) 

[whatup876]

I remember the "bicycle wheel" theory where Hell is only one (which still seems weird to me because of the differences in canon, style, even gameplay etc) but the Earths and UAC's (Classic, D3, 2016 etc) would be multiple.

And Hell and Urdak are both supernatural worlds but they're at different "sides" or rather "parts" of the wheel.

 

Even then, the Doom lore is still messy.

[QuaketallicA]

On 4/28/2024 at 2:50 AM, whatup876 said:

 

I was specifically talking about that dark era of FPS games taking the wrong notes from Halo and Half-Life, where the only 2 things that require bit of challenge are reloading and maybe scope useage.

 

 

I find Halo on second hardest difficulty much more punishing than Doom. Half-Life also leads to much more death/reload than Doom does.