ID24 - a new feature set standard

[GarrettChan]

I need to step up and learn laws so I don't accidentally blackmail people.

[LexiMax]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

I need to step up and learn laws so I don't accidentally blackmail people.

 

The good news is that it's actually incredibly easy to (not) do. 🙂

[GarrettChan]

3 minutes ago, LexiMax said:

 

The good news is that it's actually incredibly easy to (not) do. 🙂

Eh, I don't know, so what you meant is that it's easy to just not say anything?

[LexiMax]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

Eh, I don't know, so what you meant is that it's easy to just not say anything?

 

I have many posts in this thread and have yet to accumulate a warning.

[Metal_Slayer]

20 minutes ago, Gez said:

So, this sinister evil plot by the horrible fiends of Bethesda, I'd like to know more about it:

• What are they going to do?
• Why are they going to do it?
• How are they going to do it?

I don't know, but taking over the largest community forum and having people defend them 24/7 seems like the first step. One of the moderators is in fact a Nightdive employee, don't know if there are any others, but certainly it takes away from the forum's impartiality.

[LexiMax]

2 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

I don't know, but taking over the largest community forum and having people defend them 24/7 seems like the first step

 

ID24 fans - and even those who had a hand in the spec - have been warned and banned in this thread.  The face of moderation handing out punishments isn't a Nightdive employee or contractor.

[Dynamo]

1 minute ago, Metal_Slayer said:

One of the moderators is in fact a Nightdive employee

None of the currently active moderators are Night Dive employees.

[Tristan]

If we're now at the point where we now have conspiracies about this thread being part of Bethesda's secret masterplan then LOL, this thread is a complete lost cause

[Metal_Slayer]

Quasar

Moderator

Nightdive employee

Nothing against him, it just takes away the impartiality.

[Quasar]

9 minutes ago, Helm said:

Inviting the explicit attention of the parent company (in terms of setting new commercial and creative vision for an old IP) back into community goings-on will lead to what you're seeing right here.

Weird that you think it was anyone in the community's initial idea. Do you believe Nightdive just developed a new version of Doom on its own volition without a contract in place? NDS was approached by id Software who wanted to do a 30-year-anniversary version of Doom, that's how this project started. Their eye is always on Doom and its community whether you somehow distort that into a bad thing or not, because we made them what they are today.

 

You want to tell me how I should look at id when I'm the one with inside experience having worked with them on Doom 64, Quake, Quake II, and projects you haven't even heard about and will never hear about. The people i've worked with have been good people trying to do some things that will be fun for the community - and yes that was the motivation behind their idea of having a mod uploader. It is a shame that the implementation hasn't had enough time put into it before the QC deadline to avoid the problems that have resulted - Issues were definitely raised by the development team about how some of the things would work but time constraints and inertia prevented them from getting addressed satisfactorily - but that has nothing to do with ID24 at all. It doesn't interact with the standard, it isn't contingent on it, it doesn't even benefit from it since regular vanilla, Boom/MBF, and MBF21 mods work fine as-is and will always be the bulk of material available.

 

Also the mod upload system is a cost sink, not a source of profit. It was began as a "this would be cool" idea by the guys at id. It was then OK'd by Bethesda in the boring business world on the basis that it would make a good promotion for the re-launch and that hopefully that would help recoup development costs by pushing more units. And that's it. The nefarious elements are in peoples' heads. It's a distraction from this thread's topic.

[Terrcraft]

I feel that my posts earlier in the split were blatently consperitorial and turned this conversation downhill. For this I am sorry.

[Quasar]

Just now, Metal_Slayer said:

Quasar

Moderator

Nightdive employee

Nothing against him, it just takes away the impartiality.

So what? If you are about to impugn my character I suggest you view my history of involvement with and investment into the community first and consider where you're going.

[Dynamo]

5 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

Quasar

Moderator

Nightdive employee

Nothing against him, it just takes away the impartiality.

He is not a moderator, but I didn't even see his custom title (apparently automatically set by the old board system) until now. That's pretty funny, actually. But yes, he has not been involved in any kind of staff decision for as long as I've been here.

 

Also, speaking candidly of Quasar, he is one of the most anti-corporation overreach people in the entire Doom community and this I can personally testify to. He'd be the last person on this entire forum board I'd expect to approve of the scenarios described, provided they were real.

[Metal_Slayer]

3 minutes ago, Quasar said:

So what? If you are about to impugn my character I suggest you view my history of involvement with and investment into the community first and consider where you're going.

Of course I know, you missed the part where I said I had nothing against you.

[Quasar]

2 minutes ago, Dynamo said:

He is not a moderator, but I didn't even see his custom title until now. That's pretty funny, actually. But yes, he has not been involved in any kind of staff decision for as long as I've been here.

I was previously a Source Port forum moderator; the title was set by the old board system. I was also moderator of the Eternity Engine forum.

[Gez]

16 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

I don't know, but taking over the largest community forum and having people defend them 24/7 seems like the first step. One of the moderators is in fact a Nightdive employee, don't know if there are any others, but certainly it takes away from the forum's impartiality.

Just curious, do you consider my post to be a defense of Them?

 

I just want to know if it's something that can be argued about rationally, or just another of those tribal thing where anyone who disagrees, regardless of why, is actually siding with the Enemy.

[LexiMax]

14 minutes ago, Terrcraft said:

I feel that my posts earlier in the split were blatently consperitorial and turned this conversation downhill. For this I am sorry.

 

Don't feel too bad.  There's a long road between your concerns and the full blown McCarthyism that's going on right now.

[Trov]

25 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Issues were definitely raised by the development team about how some of the things would work but time constraints and inertia prevented them from getting addressed satisfactorily - but that has nothing to do with ID24 at all. It doesn't interact with the standard, it isn't contingent on it, it doesn't even benefit from it since regular vanilla, Boom/MBF, and MBF21 mods work fine as-is and will always be the bulk of material available.

I may have to disagree here - it seems like most of the prominent "Boom" or "MBF" releases from the last 15 years (in quotes because most of them will not actually run under the original Boom 202 and MBF EXEs) have level-breaking issues. I know your statement was talking specifically about the mod browsing feature but bear with me.

 

Obviously Goober and co. are busting their asses trying to fix Boom/MBF feature problems, which no doubt spawned from poor documentation of the features in the first place, obscure edge cases, etc. So I'm not trying to detract from the effort it entails. But the reality of most Nightdive releases is that they only get to have a few patches before they have to move on to another game, or the publisher doesn't feel like permitting another patch, certification for console platforms becomes too cumbersome, or any other number of other reasons.

 

The same "We didnt have time to fix it before release" statement you have about the mod browser also applies to those Boom/MBF/MBF21 and even some vanilla behaviors and therefore applies to ID24 because it is a superset of those.

 

If, hypothetically, after a few patches ND moves on, and there are still map-busting problems with Boom/MBF features in the nightdive port, would that broken implementation be expected to be complied with for ID24 support?

Edited August 16 by Trov : typos and clarification on "Boom and MBF releases"

[Helm]

15 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Weird that you think it was anyone in the community's initial idea. Do you believe Nightdive just developed a new version of Doom on its own volition without a contract in place? NDS was approached by id Software who wanted to do a 30-year-anniversary version of Doom, that's how this project started. Their eye is always on Doom and its community whether you somehow distort that into a bad thing or not, because we made them what they are today.

 

You want to tell me how I should look at id when I'm the one with inside experience having worked with them on Doom 64, Quake, Quake II, and projects you haven't even heard about and will never hear about. The people i've worked with have been good people trying to do some things that will be fun for the community - and yes that was the motivation behind their idea of having a mod uploader. It is a shame that the implementation hasn't had enough time put into it before the QC deadline to avoid the problems that have resulted - Issues were definitely raised by the development team about how some of the things would work but time constraints and inertia prevented them from getting addressed satisfactorily - but that has nothing to do with ID24 at all. It doesn't interact with the standard, it isn't contingent on it, it doesn't even benefit from it since regular vanilla, Boom/MBF, and MBF21 mods work fine as-is and will always be the bulk of material available.

 

Also the mod upload system is a cost sink, not a source of profit. It was began as a "this would be cool" idea by the guys at id. It was then OK'd by Bethesda in the boring business world on the basis that it would make a good promotion for the re-launch and that hopefully that would help recoup development costs by pushing more units. And that's it. The nefarious elements are in peoples' heads. It's a distraction from this thread's topic.

I have immense sympathy for you or anyone in your position, you wouldn't in fact know how much sympathy, as I've been privy to similar events elsewhere and have had to stew on these issues for what feels like a deleterious part of my lifetime actually. What I can tell you is what I wrote very very clearly in my original text, but personalized to you: nobody, no one worker or even cadre of well-intentioned workers can hope to sway or have an effect to what actually happens on an executive level, and therefore I have nothing to pin on any one worker in particular, I am working class and you have my support as a peer. What I scrutinize is that - from experience - this keeps happening with well intentioned workers giving shape to the corporate ambition of someone above them and taking the fallout personally. Elevate your vantage, me and you have nothing to fight over.

[Metal_Slayer]

3 minutes ago, Gez said:

Just curious, do you consider my post to be a defense of Them?

 

I just want to know if it's something that can be argued about rationally, or just another of those tribal thing where anyone who disagrees, regardless of why, is actually siding with the Enemy.

That post in specific? No, but I haven't seen a single post from you being more critical of it. If you look at my posts from August 8th, both about the remaster, Legacy of Rust and ID24 they were all positive, because I considered that the Nightdive team would never give us something less than perfect. Now you see that all 3 of these aren't perfect, quite bad at some points, and have been extremely rushed.

[Quasar]

4 minutes ago, Trov said:

If, hypothetically, after a few patches ND moves on, and there are still map-busting problems with Boom/MBF features in the nightdive port, would that broken implementation be expected to be complied with for ID24 support?

Given demo compatibility with Doom + Doom II is not a goal, I don't believe there's any expectation that Boom/MBF complevels should get retroactively broken. The unfortunate reality will just be that mods would need to work around the differences if they want to run properly on the official port. Even in the best case scenario I doubt ALL the divergences will get fixed.

[Billa]

@Gez I will explain my lunatic Illuminati conspiracy theories for you. The Doom community has been chugging along for 30 years mostly on its own, as you said. Thousands of people have put their blood sweat and tears into making source ports decked out with all these features and making endless wads/mods/maps out of sheer love for the game. Now suddenly Bethesda, the bigdick gaming corporation that "owns" Doom, releases its own port that includes most of these shiny features, plus an unmoderated wad download section that (whether through thoughtless ignorance or outright malice) is being filled to the brim with every "notable" wad out there. There are even promises to be more intimately associated with the community going forward. How does this look to an outsider? Bethesda has finally crushed the anarchy of online sharing and settled things once and for all with the official way to play Doom 2 and all its community works. So why should anyone use custom ports now?

 

They didn't even have to go completely outside the community, because there's always useful idiots and sellouts who want to turn their hobby into an income and are willing to do anything for a penny, and gamers who are transfixed by bright colours and flashing lights will go out of their way to defend it on the internet as long as they get more Content. If anything, all the measures people are suggesting to "fix" things, i.e. more community involvement, adhoc self-moderation of the uploads (mappers clamouring to upload their "official" versions like pigeons fighting over breadcrumbs), and more programmers/mappers being paid for their work, are only giving Bethesda more legitimacy and sinking us further into the quicksand. It's a worrying development and I have no faith in any of you to nip it in the bud. I won't elaborate further because Helm has already articulated my fears more eloquently than I ever could, and if you don't listen to him, you'd never listen to me.

[Gez]

12 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

That post in specific? No, but I haven't seen a single post from you being more critical of it. If you look at my posts from August 8th, both about the remaster, Legacy of Rust and ID24 they were all positive, because I considered that the Nightdive team would never give us something less than perfect. Now you see that all 3 of these aren't perfect, quite bad at some points, and have been extremely rushed.

Yes, it was clearly rushed.

 

There's actually a lot of things I dislike in the ID24 specs; chiefly among them is all the DEHACKED extensions. IMO DEHACKED shouldn't be extended, it should be replaced. It's rather farcical that we're now having to deal with negative indices. But I suppose it'd be too much too hope for.

 

2 minutes ago, Billa said:

Now suddenly Bethesda, the bigdick gaming corporation that "owns" Doom, releases its own port that includes most of these shiny features, plus an unmoderated wad download section that (whether through thoughtless ignorance or outright malice) is being filled to the brim with every "notable" wad out there. There are even promises to be more intimately associated with the community going forward. How does this look to an outsider? Bethesda has finally crushed the anarchy of online sharing and settled things once and for all with the official way to play Doom 2 and all its community works. So why should anyone use custom ports now?

Well you still can't play Brewtal Dewm or MyHouse on that official port. No matter how many times it's uploaded.

 

If it ends up anything like the scene for Skyrim or Fallout 4, the built-in mod brower will only be used by Xbox and PlayStation players. On PC, people will keep downloading mods from /idgames and ModDB, and they will keep using community source ports, which have more features and less bugs. Newcomers and casual players may be satisfied with the official port, but when they hear about the next MyHouse they'll have to discover source ports. Speedrunners will not switch to the new official port; it's terrible for demos. Did you know the "attract" demo in the background is not a real demo? It's a WebM file. It can't actually play a demo file. On that point it's a downgrade from the Unity port that preceded it.

 

Again for Skyrim and Fallout 4, the vast majority of PC players get their mods from Nexus Mods and use script extenders that let them play mods that will never work on the consoles anyway. The built-in mod browser thing is widely considered to be absolutely atrocious for managing a mod list; people very much prefer to use Mod Organizer 2 for that. The official, built-in thing is only used by console players because they don't have a choice.

[LuciferSam86]

12 minutes ago, Billa said:

because there's always useful idiots and sellouts who want to turn their hobby into an income and are willing to do anything for a penny

I kinda understand your point of view, but being myself a developer who works for a company and development is a hobby too , this is exactly what a "dream job" is , working and being payed for something I like it, so when in the morning I wake up, I'm going to work happy. 

[Helm]

If you've ever been asked to hurt something you love at work, perhaps sometimes you go get another job. I don't speak on such things idly. However as I said above, I respect the choice of any other worker because they're not really the problem. The problem is in the C-suite and the decisions it makes and then we have to squabble over the implementation of a bad idea and whose fault it was as if our ideas matter. Don't be a useful idiot is the moral of the story.

[Tristan]

I've been, regrettably, reading this thread since it started, and I think it's time everyone just called it quits for now. Give it up, go home.

 

I know some people are going to start crying about being silenced again if this thread is locked, and maaaaaybe there's some decent discussion that could still be had here (doubtful), but on the whole this shit is just going in circles and it's helping literally nobody, on either side of the argument, so just, stop. We're now in a state where any defence of ID24/KEXDoom is written off as "protecting Bethesda/Microsoft," so it seems clear to me that there's fuck all point in trying to demonstrate any further why this doesn't have to be a bad thing for the community because no one on that side of the debate still paying attention wants to hear it. I'll probably be branded as a Bethesda dicksucker for posting this, and if you actually believe that, then sincerely GFY. In 12 years, I don't think I've been this disappointed with the community. Do better.

 

I hope Gooberman, Xaser, et al. are having a good day.

 

[LuciferSam86]

Yup, I would lock the thread for a couple of days if possible and everyone to touch some grass :) ( myself too ) :) 

[Jimmy²]

Make your Vanilla Doom maps.

 

Record your demos.

 

Make your Boom-compat maps.

 

Run your community projects.

 

Make your UDMF maps.

 

Continue using /idgames.

 

Enjoy your never-ending fount of free community content.

 

However you like your Doom, it is not fucking going anywhere any time soon.

 

^{the bone-headed hyper-negativity of some of you people, I swear}

[Bald Cyberdemon]

I like Doom :)

[4shockblast]

2 hours ago, Dynamo said:

Some of them have been, but that doesn't mean people are satisfied. Also, jesus christ, calm down, we have a chance to lower the temperature and here you are getting heated again for no justifiable reason.

The temperature of this thread isn't being raised by the new posters to the thread or even originally by kraf. It was first raised by the attacks on anotak, then it was raised by the split, and when the dust has nearly settled and the thread could have maybe taken on a more peaceful turn, it was raised by your bans. I think it should be incredibly obvious that banning someone who is both a well-known community member and raised posts in the thread that received a lot of support, no matter how they were raised is not going to help cool tensions to even the slightest degree. This was putting more fuel on the fire. I disagree with your interpretations of kraf's messages that were used as evidence for the ban, and while I don't condone the initial message from kraf being combative, it was hardly banworthy. By the way, bringing up old drama and then claiming it made no difference in the ban decision is not a good look; if it made no difference, leave it out. That's my belief.

 

Regarding the id24 discussion, I was on the fence about it for most of the thread, and I still think the idea anyone can play Boom/MBF/MBF21 WADs on console is incredible, and the fact that, maybe, someone could use the official port to record demos, even if only vanilla-compatible ones, is super cool. Unfortunately, I do have to agree with a lot of the posts skeptical of it over the course of this thread however. Corporate concerns are being lambasted as total nonsense and fearmongering, but it's clear that they have already impacted this release and caused a lot of controversy in at least the following two ways:

• The NDAs prevented the release of the spec until it was all basically already ready and was essentially shoved on port developers without prior knowledge of the full scope of it, that's one.
• The fact that it was rushed to QuakeCon's release, leading to stuff like the WAD uploader and the spec itself having major issues, and BTW, splitting the two apart might make sense to someone working on one and not the other, but to the audience, the people behind it are the same.

I won't lump the PR response to the criticism with the above, because I don't necessarily believe it comes from a corporate mindset. I can certainly understand why someone would be heated to defend what they created from others, especially ones they have perceived bad blood with (although as evidenced in the thread, that bad blood may have been one-sided in more than one case). In the end, I really wanted this to work out for both sides because I do respect the people working behind the port. GooberMan made something that greatly increases the reach Doom has for the casual audience, and that's pretty cool tbh. But the issues raised above coupled with the PR response have eroded trust for the port, including much of my own, which is sad to see.