The perfect non-doom engine for me?

[libre-lettuce-pie]

I'm feeling stuck with Doom, Source, and Quake. I enjoy Quake's graphics because editing textures is easy and you can create humanoid models that fit its art style rather quickly and easily. However, Quake lacks a solid dialogue system. While pop-up text or CSQC can handle dialogue, they’re not great for complex branching conversations.

Doom has its own problems: the 3D floors are hack-y to work with, and making directional sprites from 3D models is a hassle.

The Source engine is good, but the assets are so complex that creating models that match the art style takes a month per hand-made humanoid mdl.

I tried modding Deus Ex, but I think Unreal Engine versions 1-3’s map-making process to be very un-intuitive compared to Quake, Source, or Doom. Deus Ex would be almost perfect if it had better documentation and me not hating older unreal engine versions.

Does anyone know of an engine or game that has a good dialogue system, a lot of assets, is easy to work with (less than a week per hand-made humanoid model), and includes a map editor (and linux support)?
 

[Gez]

OpenMW? 😁

[CrocMagnum]

Duke Nukem 3D comes with Mapster32 Editor. From what I gather it isn't as intuitive as the Doom Builder editor, though.  

The EDuke32 Source Port gives you even more scripting options and it has a linux version too. 

 

Making Maps with Mapster32 (Steam Guide)

 

If I mention Duke Nukem 3D it's because a few months ago I discovered a total conversion called The AMC Squad. 

This mod was so entertaining it kept me hooked for a few months, no joke. They are 4 Episodes, right now.

The mod is fully voice acted and has a pretty sizeable roster of playable characters. 

 

The AMC Squad has dialogue options so that's why I'm mentioning it here.

Since I'm no modder, I have no idea how they implemented that feature. 

 

AMC Squad v4.5 FULL (moddb) 

 

note: The AMC Squad is standalone, it doesn't need Duke Nukem 3D to be played. 

Edited August 30 by CrocMagnum

[libre-lettuce-pie]

5 hours ago, CrocMagnum said:

If I mention Duke Nukem 3D it's because a few months ago I discovered a total conversion called The AMC Squad. 

This mod was so entertaining it kept me hooked for a few months, no joke. They are 4 Episodes, right now.

The mod is fully voice acted and has a pretty sizeable roster of playable characters. 

 

The AMC Squad has dialogue options so that's why I'm mentioning it here.

Since I'm no modder, I have no idea how they implemented that feature. 

I looked up a playthrough on youtube and I think its a step in the right direction, there seems to be a lack of 3d resource for me to work with though and possibly lack of documentation, its a pretty good recommendation and I may end up using it if all else fails.

Spoiler

 

8 hours ago, Gez said:

OpenMW? 😁

Honestly, this seems really nice. it has built in dialogue, a map editor, an art style thats pretty good but it does seem a bit high poly and possibly hard to replicate. also it seems like there might be a lack of assets if I want to make something that isn't fantasy. I'll check out the modding scene for that and see whats possible for modders to do, it looks like it has alot of documentation too. I'll try to test it out as soon as I can, thank you 😁

Edited August 30 by Milkeno

[CrocMagnum]

25 minutes ago, Milkeno said:

I looked up a playthrough on youtube and I think its a step in the right direction, there seems to be a lack of 3d resource for me to work with though and possibly lack of documentation, its a pretty good recommendation and I may end up using it if all else fails.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Just a remark: judging from the screenshot you posted, the playthrough you watched is extremely outdated. 

The AMC Squad v4.5 is head and shoulders above older versions (level design, weapons, music,...). 

 

Here's a quality playthrough which was posted more recently. This will give you a more reliable point of view: 

 

The AMC Squad Episode 1 The Men Who Were AMC (Youtube)

 

 

[Marmiteman02]

From what I remember, the old Serious Sam engine was easy to work in.

[libre-lettuce-pie]

3 hours ago, CrocMagnum said:

The AMC Squad v4.5 is head and shoulders above older versions (level design, weapons, music,...).  

I watched a bit of that and seeing that the 3d models arent there is a bit of a bummer since I dont really like making rotational sprites from 3d models since the results will vary alot sprite to sprite but it did sort of give me an idea on how to do linear dialogue in quake without fancy programing though so in the end I'm glad I watched that, I can still sort of see me using duke 3d still but the whole lack of 3d resources to use and edit is a big bummer for me. thank you!
 

24 minutes ago, Marmiteman02 said:

From what I remember, the old Serious Sam engine was easy to work in.

Years ago I actually considered that but for one reason or another I dropped working on it, but for now I think with my limitations in mind of what's possible for me (or any single developer) serious sam 1's style is just too detailed for me to recreate consistently. Though the serious engine is thinking outside the box of alot of the engines I've thought about recently so it's a good suggestion. Here's like a graph of what's possible for me to make.

[giwake]

 

17 hours ago, Milkeno said:

Does anyone know of an engine or game that has a good dialogue system, a lot of assets, is easy to work with (less than a week per hand-made humanoid model), and includes a map editor (and linux support)?

 

I hate to say this but I think it's going to be almost impossible to find something that has a good pre-made dialogue system but also has a retro aesthetic outside of something like GZDoom, Unreal or Unity. Most moddable FPS games don't have support for dialogue systems because they're mostly focused around shooting. The closest thing I can think of at the moment is something like Deus Ex or Anachronox (although that isn't an FPS, it does run on the Quake 2 engine) which both relied on a lot of custom scripting IIRC.

 

Unreal and Unity both have some minor support for Quake-1 style mapping. Unreal has HammUEr, a program that lets you import BSP levels, but it's 42 bucks and only seems to work on Windows. QUnity also lets you import Quake maps into Unity, but I have no idea how well it works on Linux.

 

I've seen a couple of small games made in FTEQW, which fit in to your art requirements but nothing that adds something as complex as a dialogue system.

 

I've got not idea how well EDuke32 uses models, but I recall them using MD3? Not 100% sure. I also feel like the Build engine is a lot jankier than Id's engines and probably isn't the best to work in. The Goldsrc engine might have a couple of mods with dialogue systems but I'm not 100% sure and I feel like the people who have made them have probably left the modding scene.

 

It seems like the best bet is to use GZDoom (which does have support for 3D models, so you don't have to render out all the sprites) or Unreal or Unity with some kind of dialogue system from their respective asset stores.

[libre-lettuce-pie]

50 minutes ago, giwake said:

 

 

I hate to say this but I think it's going to be almost impossible to find something that has a good pre-made dialogue system but also has a retro aesthetic outside of something like GZDoom, Unreal or Unity. Most moddable FPS games don't have support for dialogue systems because they're mostly focused around shooting. The closest thing I can think of at the moment is something like Deus Ex or Anachronox (although that isn't an FPS, it does run on the Quake 2 engine) which both relied on a lot of custom scripting IIRC.

 

Unreal and Unity both have some minor support for Quake-1 style mapping. Unreal has HammUEr, a program that lets you import BSP levels, but it's 42 bucks and only seems to work on Windows. QUnity also lets you import Quake maps into Unity, but I have no idea how well it works on Linux.

 

I've seen a couple of small games made in FTEQW, which fit in to your art requirements but nothing that adds something as complex as a dialogue system.

 

I've got not idea how well EDuke32 uses models, but I recall them using MD3? Not 100% sure. I also feel like the Build engine is a lot jankier than Id's engines and probably isn't the best to work in. The Goldsrc engine might have a couple of mods with dialogue systems but I'm not 100% sure and I feel like the people who have made them have probably left the modding scene.

 

It seems like the best bet is to use GZDoom (which does have support for 3D models, so you don't have to render out all the sprites) or Unreal or Unity with some kind of dialogue system from their respective asset stores.

Yeah that was what I was thinking, I was just checking if I was right in how over it was for me in that department...
I was considering whether to stick with Quake or use Godot with TrenchBroom, but importing assets is a challenge I either have to make them all from scratch which isnt a doable workload for just one person or I could implement some kind of quake pak file importer which lets me "steal assets" while it also being legal . I tried a random quake mod to see if it was possible to make anything "worthwhile" I wouldn't say it was worth my time or deep or anything but it did get me into the Christmas spirit and showed me cool text popups. I think I can overlay text on a block in front of the camera with progsdump to sort of recreate that amc duke mod's dialouge but in quake but I still want to create a branching dialogue system, but my magnum opus doesn’t need to be made immediately I guess...

Also for the gzdoom stuff I really just do not like working with 3d floors, I like the strife dialogue system though. (also with gzdoom you lack 3d resources unless it inexplicably supports quake 3's pk3's and I can magically find people who are willing to play a mod that requires both doom and quake3)

Edited August 31 by Milkeno

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

I remember Wheel of Karma for Hexen II having some dialogue stuff but not doing much with it in the current demo. (I'm also hazy on how much Hexen II's HexenC differs from QuakeC, as I understand it they're largely the same thing but there might be some differences.)

 

There was also Dawn of Darkness built on Quake 2, but as I recall that was sort of a buggy abandoned beta type deal and sometimes quests seemed to not register correctly.  And Quake 2 has the whole DLL modding thing going on which you might or might not be comfortable with.

[Marmiteman02]

5 hours ago, giwake said:

 

 

I hate to say this but I think it's going to be almost impossible to find something that has a good pre-made dialogue system but also has a retro aesthetic outside of something like GZDoom, Unreal or Unity. Most moddable FPS games don't have support for dialogue systems because they're mostly focused around shooting. The closest thing I can think of at the moment is something like Deus Ex or Anachronox (although that isn't an FPS, it does run on the Quake 2 engine) which both relied on a lot of custom scripting IIRC.

 

Unreal and Unity both have some minor support for Quake-1 style mapping. Unreal has HammUEr, a program that lets you import BSP levels, but it's 42 bucks and only seems to work on Windows. QUnity also lets you import Quake maps into Unity, but I have no idea how well it works on Linux.

 

I've seen a couple of small games made in FTEQW, which fit in to your art requirements but nothing that adds something as complex as a dialogue system.

 

I've got not idea how well EDuke32 uses models, but I recall them using MD3? Not 100% sure. I also feel like the Build engine is a lot jankier than Id's engines and probably isn't the best to work in. The Goldsrc engine might have a couple of mods with dialogue systems but I'm not 100% sure and I feel like the people who have made them have probably left the modding scene.

 

It seems like the best bet is to use GZDoom (which does have support for 3D models, so you don't have to render out all the sprites) or Unreal or Unity with some kind of dialogue system from their respective asset stores.

 

That's putting it lightly.

[MrFlibble]

18 hours ago, Milkeno said:

Also for the gzdoom stuff I really just do not like working with 3d floors, I like the strife dialogue system though. (also with gzdoom you lack 3d resources unless it inexplicably supports quake 3's pk3's and I can magically find people who are willing to play a mod that requires both doom and quake3)

Isn't DISDAIN built on GZDoom? I had the impression that it fully supports 3D models.

 

As for The AMC Squad, EDuke32 definitely does support models, although I have no idea how compatible they are with the Quake format (possibly not at all). There's an optional Duke Nukem 3D High Resolution Pack that replaces monsters and sprite items with 3D models, among other things.

[Gez]

EDuke32 can use MD2 and MD3 models. There's some rudimentary documentation here:

https://wiki.eduke32.com/wiki/Model_(DEF)

https://wiki.eduke32.com/wiki/Definemodel_(DEF)

[libre-lettuce-pie]

Just now, MrFlibble said:

Isn't DISDAIN built on GZDoom? I had the impression that it fully supports 3D models.

It does, what I meant as "lack 3d resources" is that there are no large libraries of premade assets to use and make stuff for. I said using quake3's pk3's as a solution for that since they would have assets in them that I would be able to use and edit and copy the style of but its not a great solution.

[giwake]

1 minute ago, Milkeno said:

It does, what I meant as "lack 3d resources" is that there are no large libraries of premade assets to use and make stuff for. I said using quake3's pk3's as a solution for that since they would have assets in them that I would be able to use and edit and copy the style of but its not a great solution.

 

There already are a wide variety of pre-made assets available on the ZDoom Forums, including ports from other games. This pack has 700 models ready to go, although they might not fit the aesthetic you're looking for.

GZDoom can't load Quake 3's PK3 files because it uses PK3s in an entirely different way. As long as it's a non-commercial project you can use assets from ripped from Quake 3 and other games though.

If you're ever in need of something, ask on the ZDoom Forums or their Discord - someone will probably have something you need.

[libre-lettuce-pie]

1 hour ago, giwake said:

As long as it's a non-commercial project you can use assets from ripped from Quake 3 and other games though.

Oh? I assumed that was frowned upon by moderators and lawyers and such, I guess it wouldn't be that bad to continue learning the ins and outs of quake while also continuing work on doom stuff, the use of 3d floors and teleports and area portals seems like it might still be what ruins it for me though, my first map had a problems with that where I had to use slade to make my own "silent teleport" system in vanilla but I imagine it gets less "involved" when you use zdoom.

[june gloom]

Build is one hell of a janky-ass engine to work with, but it's honestly my favorite.

[giwake]

3D floors are slightly easier to do with Ultimate Doom Builder's 3D Floor Mode. They're not the most intuitive but they work. I also recommend setting up a keybind for "Toggle Visual Sidedef Slope Picking" which makes slopes and ramps really easy. I highly recommend using UDB to make maps as it's geared mostly around GZDoom and most* people use it. Invisible teleports are a bit of a pain to work with, but I think it's possible to avoid them completely with sufficient 3D floor usage.

 

A lot of Doom modding uses a lot of stuff from other games. Realm667 has a bunch of stuff from other games available that you can just plop into your own project and pretty much every mod out there just has a bunch of stuff from other games/mods. The only real rules, AFAIK, are:

1. Credit people for the stuff they made
2. Don't try to sell your work if it contains assets that are from games or made by people who haven't given you permission to sell them
3. ok honestly i can't think of a third. uhhh. Don't be shitty.

Like, honestly. So many mods use assets shared around the community. Every weapon mod I can think of probably uses that one sprite sheet of Doomguy hands somewhere. Doom is, in a way, remix culture. Sharing and remixing is encouraged!

 

^{* based on an average of like. 3-4 people. not actually sure if most people use it.}

[Goat-Avenger]

If the original half-life engine went free/open-source, I think that'd be great.  It isn't likely to happen.  (looks like some one did some work on the idea here: https://github.com/headcrab-junkyard/OGS  Looks like these folks may have made more progress and are more current --> https://github.com/eukara/freehl

 

There are several Doom 3 engine source ports.  I believe it's a rather feature rich engine.  The only downside is it would be time consuming to mod for, and I'm not sure how well it handles big open spaces.

 

There's Uhexen: Hammer of Thyrion  ...though that may not be more than a small step-up from the quake source ports available.

 

I feel your sentiments: GZDoom is absolutely fantastic in so many ways, but.. it's still the Doom engine.  It wasn't designed with true 3d in mind, like quake.  And the quake source ports differ on so many points.  They'll do what they intend to do, and do it well, but..

 

My ideal would be something like the bullet physics engine, married to quake with hitboxes (preferably using something like Q2/3 file formats for modding), and GZdoom type dialogue.  Or even just GZDoom but for true 3d maps you could make with somethign like QERadiant.

Edited September 1 by Goat-Avenger

[MrFlibble]

I'm very noobish when it comes to coding, but since the Quake engine is open-source, how difficult would it be to actually code the branching dialogue system that you envision into it? I suppose that the dialogue screens should not be very different from how the in-game menu works, i. e. there are selectable strings that the player navigates about, leading to more screens with text when selected. Since you have already developed a prototype in the Quake engine, perhaps this approach would turn out less resource-demanding than migration to a completely different engine altogether?

 

I don't know if the dialogue system in The AMC Squad is purely based on CON scripting or partially hard-coded (IIRC, the game uses a modified version of EDuke32). But maybe it could be worth taking a look at the implementation there to see if it could be replicated in a Quake source port.

[Marmiteman02]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the old Serious Editor refuses to run on modern systems. So your best bet is to go through the version that is included with SS Fusion.

[Skullzrawk9]

This is slightly off-topic, but if you or anyone else is interested in making a retro-style shooter from scratch (as opposed to modding an existing game), I’d recommend giving Godot a try. While 2D games is its strength, its 3D capabilities have come a long way. Games like Cruelty Squad and Wrought Flesh were made with Godot, both having a retro, Quake-like aesthetic. It’s also open source and has really good documentation.

 

However, it’s more of an alternative to Unity and Unreal than something like the old id tech engines or Build, so it might not be what you’re looking for. But I figured I’d drop Godot as an option, as it’s my favorite game engine and someone might be interested in it.

[libre-lettuce-pie]

3 hours ago, Skullzrawk9 said:

However, it’s more of an alternative to Unity and Unreal than something like the old id tech engines or Build,

You can still have a pretty "oldschool" bsp style workflow with addons like qodot for godot, I've tried making stuff for it but the biggest barrier it has over modding is lack of 3d assets but that comes with the territory of being a standalone engine.

Edited September 3 by Milkeno

[act]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:04 PM, june gloom said:

Build is one hell of a janky-ass engine to work with, but it's honestly my favorite.

That's one thing I need to forewarn you about from the perspective of someone whose modded in a whole lot of different old FPS games: Build is anomalously close to something like the x-Ray engine when it comes to both impressiveness and jankiness. Build will absolutely fuck you up, it will crush you with a door a thousand times over, but if you can wrestle it long enough, eventually it will bless you.

Spoiler

crossing my fingers Ken Silverman sees that reference and likes it a reasonable amount

 

[Kyle07]

On 9/2/2024 at 2:58 PM, Marmiteman02 said:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the old Serious Editor refuses to run on modern systems. So your best bet is to go through the version that is included with SS Fusion.

You mean SS Revolution, Fusion contains all the HD games from 2009 to 2011. Revolution is a modern port/mod of the old games and the old editor.

[Verna]

How about Build Engine?

 

I mostly play Doom Engine and Build Engine FPSes.

 

 

Edit:

 

I don't understand about making wads or such things. I just play.

Edited September 8 by Verna

[Goat-Avenger]

I just stumbled across https://castle-engine.io

 

With a cursory glance, it seems quite interesting.  There's godot of course, but I think most folks are aware of that by now.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

On 8/31/2024 at 2:57 AM, Milkeno said:

was considering whether to stick with Quake or use Godot with TrenchBroom, but importing assets is a challenge I either have to make them all from scratch which isnt a doable workload for just one person or I could implement some kind of quake pak file importer which lets me "steal assets" while it also being legal . I tried a random quake mod to see if it was possible to make anything "worthwhile"

I was just wondering what the scope and feature set you need. 

Some quake engine like already mentioned FTEQW could work well, especially if you dislike working with gzdoom 3d floors/portals. Which is understandable. Godot would give you most freedom but of course that has the drawback that you need to build everything from scratch. I did take a look at qodot before as well and it looks really useful. 

I think it'd be good to write something like a design doc, even if flexible and rudimentary. Just to see what you actually need. What can be modified in pre-existing engines like gzd strife dialogue systems or quake, or what would have to be made from nothing, or found in the web. Having the broad scope of what's available and what you need would probably make the deciding a lot easier. 

I know i wouldn't go with fteqw because there's pretty much no documentation. That's also worth taking into account, godot has a pretty large community of cool people to bother with questions, and you can make levels for with trenchbroom. OpenMW would be learning a new toolset, which takes time and energy. There's so much to consider... 

Fingers crossed, hope it goes well :)

Edited September 11 by Sneezy McGlassFace

[libre-lettuce-pie]

8 hours ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I think it'd be good to write something like a design doc, even if flexible and rudimentary. Just to see what you actually need. What can be modified in pre-existing engines like gzd strife dialogue systems or quake, or what would have to be made from nothing, or found in the web. Having the broad scope of what's available and what you need would probably make the deciding a lot easier. 

I think making a design doc is the way to go. It’ll help me figure out what to focus on and where to compromise. I've been checking out those newfangled "Advanced Engines" like VKdoom and GZdoom, even though I usually try to avoid them. I'm finding them more appealing now. Playing around with Quake has given me a decent grasp of how to make models in formats like md3 and md2 through Neosis which are supported by GZdoom but aren't well-documented in Doom-related resources.

[whybmonotacrab]

On 8/31/2024 at 10:57 AM, Milkeno said:

Yeah that was what I was thinking, I was just checking if I was right in how over it was for me in that department...
I was considering whether to stick with Quake or use Godot with TrenchBroom, but importing assets is a challenge I either have to make them all from scratch which isnt a doable workload for just one person or I could implement some kind of quake pak file importer which lets me "steal assets" while it also being legal . I tried a random quake mod to see if it was possible to make anything "worthwhile" I wouldn't say it was worth my time or deep or anything but it did get me into the Christmas spirit and showed me cool text popups. I think I can overlay text on a block in front of the camera with progsdump to sort of recreate that amc duke mod's dialouge but in quake but I still want to create a branching dialogue system, but my magnum opus doesn’t need to be made immediately I guess...

Also for the gzdoom stuff I really just do not like working with 3d floors, I like the strife dialogue system though. (also with gzdoom you lack 3d resources unless it inexplicably supports quake 3's pk3's and I can magically find people who are willing to play a mod that requires both doom and quake3)

This is purely a narrative Quake mod that was released recently: https://www.slipseer.com/index.php?resources/a-day-like-no-other.372/. I think that's about the extent you'll get in that engine though.

 I started learning Godot not long ago and it's surprisingly easy to pick up with no experience. There's some really good tutorials out there now that the established Unity Youtubers moved over, and if you look on itch.io you'll find tons of resources for games you can use - both free and paid.