Controller vs Keyboard and Mouse

[spacelion88]

Do you prefer controllers all the time? Or do you choose the mouse and keyboard without any hesitation?

I'm one of those people that always uses the controller no matter what. Some people thought I was weird because I played Left 4 Dead on Steam only always with a controller forever, with the reticle off, and the turn speed up to the max except for two  microscopic notches right at the end of the bar, and I beat all but one of the the campaigns in L4D1 on expert with bots that way, without using any glitches mind you.

However in recent years, the Fates have FORCED me to use mouse & keyboard to play games now, because my joysticks and buttons got worn down & I can't buy another one. But I take full responsibility for that when I tried playing Doom Eternal on the harder difficulties, and too much adrenaline went into my thumbs and the joysticks got messed up in such a way that they're a permanent limpstick, gravity flops them around with no dead-zone and they barely make any character run or turn anymore in any game or emulator no matter how much I mess up the settings to max.

So, I had to put that controller away and rely on nothing but the PC-master race's chosen apparatus that they all say is so superior. Now, I could always tell that mouse and keyboard WAS indeed objectively superior for first person shooters, for the aiming, but I still preferred the controller. This was possibly because I've always been a workaholic on the laptop every day for decades, so when I'm in game-mode I want to feel like I'm holding some kind of raygun that my wrists can comfortably turn around for, wrather than having them facing flat down to the core of the Earth (there's a reason some people meditate with their palms up sometimes when they feel like doing that).

So after finally finally really actually using the mouse and keyboard consistently now for long enough, I actually feel like I would never go back to a controller. I just got used to it. Now at the grey-haired age of 37, I got addicted to the mouse and keyboard over the controller. It IS superior!!! YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG! I went back to Left 4 Dead, Serious Sam, all the Dooms , and even tons of 3rd person games, platformers, EVERYTHING IS BETTER!!!! How did I not sense this before ? Well...not EVERYthing..the playstation emulators still work a lot better with a controller, WHICH REMINDS ME!! Listen to THIS crazy story now.

 

so that controller I told you about that I thought it was done for? Well...after like 3 years of that controller just sitting in a box, I pulled it back out while getting rid of junk, and figured I'd try it one more time. Here's the other thing, I ALWAYS turned off the vibration / haptic feedback features on all games, with intent to make the controller last as long as possible. I always assumed that vibrating electronic devices would hasten their entropy, so I always turned off that rumble feature first thing.

But since this device was completely effed, I figured I'd try a few games with the vibration all the way up just for fun. I went into PCSX2 and maxxed out all the vibration motors passed their originally intended use, I tried Doom 3 BFG edition with the haptic on 'cause I remember that game had RIDICULOUS vibration.

And wouldn't you know ....suddenly, THE JOYSTICKS STARTED WORKING AGAIN!!!! WHAT???? You heard me. I never use vibration at all. Then one day I used it, and it seems to have somehow fixed the joysticks! How could this be? I dunno. Maybe there was some nasty gunk or something caked inside, and the intense shakin' and shakin' and shakin' quaked it loose, but then how do you explain that the joysticks suddenly got their spring back to the deadzone? They're still a little messed up; it's not like brand new or anything,

Well, now I tried a few games with that vibration on all the way, so much so that when I sat the controller down on my bed, the window was shaking in the room I was in! And I'm on a mattress on the floor! What kinda science is all this now ? Is that how the government makes earthquakes and stuff??? After a few hours of use, this controller seems to revert to a nonresponsive joystick apathy, but if I turn it off and leave it for a day, it recovers, as long as I use vibration. How very strange. I was wondering if anyone else ever had any similar experiences. I would still use controllers every now and then, but for now, the mouse is my eye, and the WASD, keys are my legs. And I ain't complaining about it!

[Murdoch]

You couldn't pay me to play 3D games with a controller. Grew up on old school consoles and arcades, then moved to PC as Wolf3D was coming out. So i am used to controllers for 2D, mouse and keyboard for 3D. I'm sure if maybe i persisted I'd get used to it. But i see nothing to gain from doing so.

 

Mouse and keyboard might be theoretically superior but ultimately it's more about what each player is used to and comfortable with. 

Edited Friday at 08:02 PM by Murdoch

[famicommander]

Doom is Doom. I can and have played for large amounts of time with keyboard only, with keyboard and mouse, with dual analog controllers, with PS1 style d-pad turning and shoulder button strafing, etc. Because you don't have to manually aim vertically there's far less of a difference when you're playing Doom as compared to most shooters.

 

I mostly play on Switch these days so I use dual analog, but if I'm on my PC I use keyboard and mouse.

[OnionTaco22]

Usually I use keyboard and mouse if I have the option to. It just feels nicer to use then controller.

[GibFrag]

Keyboard and mouse. That is all. It feels like a handicap otherwise at this point for me, personally. 

[Jayextee]

<sigh>

In before this topic turns predictably into a shitfest of people insisting that FPS games are "unplayable" with controller or whatever the current de rigueur point of view is.

Controller's alright. A lot of mouse aggravates an old carpal tunnel injury of mine and occasionally I have to switch to controller. I can't turn as fast or shoot as accurately, sure, so KB+M is "better". But y'see, I play casually. Which is fine too. I don't need to hit the speedrunning tricks or UV-MAX every map I play. Having to make some small allowances to my playing style when I use controller is okay.

So, basically this:
 

2 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Mouse and keyboard might be theoretically superior but ultimately it's more about what each player is used to and comfortable with. 

 

[GibFrag]

FPS is certainly playable with a controller, but there’s a reason a lot of console gamers don’t like cross platforming against PC players that use keyboard and mouse in competitive multiplayer. 
 

Doom not having vertical aiming is a unique feeling with the mouse that I have come to really appreciate. Love the precise pin-point horizontal aiming with the mouse and quick turning.
 

After I got used to it I could never go back to keyboard only. Even Final Doom on PS1 supports a mouse, and using the d-pad only controller it does sort of simulate a WASD + mouse feel, if only the other PS1 title had support for the mouse too. 

 

I have played the game with Xbox style controller and it does control very well, but I am not convinced it would stand up to a lobby of keyboard and mouse players in DM, but against other controller players it plays perfect. Still, I prefer keyboard and mouse. 

Edited Friday at 10:49 PM by GibFrag

[MFG38]

Doom and other FPS games I play with mouse and keyboard. Other games, either KB+M or controller depending on the genre and which (likely) works better.

[SpartaKiss]

I'm basically full controller all the time on any gaming engine. I used to do all Mouse and Keys on Doom, but I just get a more fun and relaxing feeling with controller setup. 

I'm undeniably a far better player with Mikey Mouse, but the controller is just so satisfying.

[AbeAwesome]

There isn't a single scenario in which raw controller/gamepad input outperforms raw keyboard + mouse input (in any game, in any application).

That said, DOOM is a game where using a controller can work well when mapped correctly. The lack of freelook and the built-in auto-aim being the primary reason it can work without putting the player at a massive disadvantage.

[lizzieshinkickr]

4 minutes ago, AbeAwesome said:

There isn't a single scenario in which raw controller/gamepad input outperforms raw keyboard + mouse input (in any game, in any application). 

 

WASD is digital input (either off, or fully on), whereas you can have analog input (from 0.0 through 1.0) on the sticks of a controller. There could be some applications where the latter is superior in regards to precision.

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Keyboard and mouse simply because it feels much tighter to me personally. Granted, I DID grow up playing games on PC more than consoles (most of my childhood console gaming was either the Gamecube or Wii... XD)

 

That being said, thanks to the Splatoon games I've started to appreciate any game that adds in motion controls. So far Unity/KeX DooM and Dusk (both on Switch) contain some form of motion controls.

[Rykzeon]

3 minutes ago, lizzieshinkickr said:

 

WASD is digital input (either off, or fully on), whereas you can have analog input (from 0.0 through 1.0) on the sticks of a controller. There could be some applications where the latter is superior in regards to precision.

me tapping A quickly to poke an enemy without exposing much hitbox

[AbeAwesome]

6 minutes ago, lizzieshinkickr said:

WASD is digital input (either off, or fully on), whereas you can have analog input (from 0.0 through 1.0) on the sticks of a controller. There could be some applications where the latter is superior in regards to precision.

 

Not with a gamepad style controller though. The sticks are too stubby to provide you with enough precise control of the analog range.

In the world of games, even in racing and flight sims, a keyboard only player will outperform a similarly skilled controller player (or even a wheel user). But for most racing sim players, using the wheel is part of the experience (myself included).

[DBH]

Ask all the top players. I bet they only use keyboard and mouse. There's just no way a controller can be any wear near as good as using a keyboard and mouse. Strafing on ps5 controller is a total ballache. Took me 45 minutes of Strafing on the first level of doom 2 in spain only just to get that blue key. I thought it was impossible. It sure felt like it.

 

My take on it is all the mega hard wads are miles harder to finish using a controller. They are all created on a pc after all.

Edited Friday at 11:18 PM by DBH

[Xaser]

41 minutes ago, AbeAwesome said:

There isn't a single scenario in which raw controller/gamepad input outperforms raw keyboard + mouse input (in any game, in any application).

 

There do exist games with control schemes that fundamentally work better on controller than KBM. The Devil May Cry series* is a notable example: in order to perform certain attacks, you need to push the left stick toward/away from the enemy you're targeting; this is very difficult to do with keyboard keys (e.g. WASD or ESDF or whatnot), and free camera movement (i.e. DMC5) doesn't make up the difference in practice since you'll need to constantly be fiddling with the camera to line up attacks properly (the games' "lock-on" doesn't spin the camera around to face the enemy like it does in, say, Dark Souls). Trust me, I've tried. :P

 

Games that have inputs like "do a half circle on the D-Pad" are similarly much harder to pull off with keyboard versus a controller; there's a ton of that sort of thing in fighting games, though I'm definitely way underqualified to dive into detail on any of those. :P

 

[*with the sole exception of the DmC reboot; it lacks this move-stick-toward-enemy mechanic, meaning it does control just as well with keyboard+mouse. Also a perfectly fine game, provided you're fine laughing at all the cringiness. :P ]


Interestingly, there's one major example that I do heavily disagree with the general sentiment: souls-likes. There's a long-running misconception (of sorts) that you must use a controller to play a Souls-like, but in practice KBM works equally well** if the game actually supports keyboard+mouse properly. The original Prepare to Die Edition on PC infamously had horrible KBM support, which started the whole trend, but plenty of games in the genre have great KBM support (e.g. Lies of P is flawless, Elden Ring has some minor UI jank but nothing showstopping, and so forth), though the default control schemes generally aren't great so it takes some fiddling to get it to work. There's just not a ton of incentive for folks who grew up with Control Scheme A to switch over to Scheme B, especially if B takes greater than zero amount of DIY, so not a lot of people bother trying it. :P

 

[**the usual counter-argument here is that you only have 8 directions of movement with WASD versus full freedom with a control stick, but this is only true while you're locked on to an enemy, since free camera movement gives you total freedom. The default control scheme on controller for most souls-likes encourages staying locked-on most of the time since both move-camera and dodge-roll actions require use of the right thumb, but that's fixable in a variety of ways: rebinding controls, using a controller with paddles, adopting a claw grip (for the masochists out there :P), or -- surprise! -- using KBM, since you've got the camera controls on-hand (literally) at all times with the mouse. If you're one of the rare goofballs who learns the games on KBM first, you end up developing less reliance on the lock-on mechanic as a result, so the 8-direction limitation ends up vanishing in practice. Yes, I spend a lot of time thinking about this 'cause it's fun. :P ]

[Coopersville]

I started using gamepads more with the new console ports, or when I'm using Delta Touch on my tablet. It's alright but the autoaim can feel surprisingly finicky at times. 

[lizzieshinkickr]

1 hour ago, AbeAwesome said:

Not with a gamepad style controller though. The sticks are too stubby to provide you with enough precise control of the analog range.

 

Firstly, that sounds like a personal skill that can be developed over time not facet of the hardware itself. Secondly, they actually make sticks with longer shafts to increase precision even further. Either way, you're comparing "literally no analog control" of a digital keyboard to "analog control" of a control stick. I don't even play that many games with controllers, but I think I would have a miserable time playing Spyro The Dragon or Super Mario 64 using a Keyboard exclusively (though I'm sure it can be done!). All I'm saying is "[Keyboard/Mouse is superior] in any game, in any application" is silly to assert.

[xScavengerWolfx]

As someone that grew up with controller based games and not much Mouse and Keyboard, i'll keep using controller....But since i've been doing mapping the past 3 to 4 years and making videos and what not i'm used to Mouse and Keyboard.

 

 

Basically i can use both if a game allows both.

[AbeAwesome]

49 minutes ago, Xaser said:

[...]

 

I can't speak to the DMC situation, but fighting game inputs on keyboard are a breeze. That's why all the really cool kids use WASD-style Hitbox controllers (see in Spoiler). :P

 

On the Souls-like question, I 100% agree. My girlfriend played those games for thousands of hours using a controller, switched to keyboard + mouse, and was playing better in less than a day; she never went back. Same for Monster Hunter and Dragon's Dogma. The one thing is that for those sorts of games, it's useful to have a "gaming" mouse with extra buttons, since 3D console games assume a baseline of 4 "primary" action inputs (the bumpers and triggers, not even including face buttons), whereas a basic mouse only has 2 good ones, and the mouse wheel click.

 

There are some games (mainly from the Xbox 360/PS3 generation) that have analog movement input, or use variable trigger pressure to augment the in-game action, and while playing them with mouse + keyboard is easier and gets better results, I do sometimes play them with a gamepad because I like the ability to have analog movement speed... that said, the Splinter Cell games solved that by using the mouse wheel to set your speed, and that solution combines the flexibility of analog movement with the reliability of mouse + keyboard combo, so it's moreso a design issue in my eyes.

 

Spoiler

 

[Fonze]

I'm happy to use most any control hardware; I've played doom with touchscreen on mobile, controller on consoles, and kb+m on pc. I have fun with all of them, but my expectations are different with each, because each is a fundamentally different experience with how I can interact with the world and what my skill ceiling is. Playing doom on touchscreen for some may be a frustrating mess, but when you approach it with the mindset of being a lil sloppy and that's okay, it can be great fun and you can still do somewhat okay against even kb+m players in a dm. Not to the point of winning in all likelihood, but I've gotten close before! 😋

 

That said, there is very much a difference in coordination between the different methods and I simply cannot play a very hard mapset or a duel and expect to win while on mobile. I have to turn the difficulty down. But that's what difficulty levels are there for! 

 

Along the same lines, doom is super fast paced and mouse control is probably more important in it than in most other fps's. See shoot from duel40, the quintessential training map for duel ssg use. The ability to turn very quickly, accurately, is a necessity in dm/duels to not be chain-killed 50-0. And it's not that controller and touchscreen cannot eek out wins, anything is possible with enough time, practice, and luck, but they will be playing at a pretty major disadvantage given the fast pace of this particular game.

Edited Monday at 06:05 PM by Fonze

[roadworx]

2 hours ago, AbeAwesome said:

In the world of games, even in racing and flight sims, a keyboard only player will outperform a similarly skilled controller player (or even a wheel user). But for most racing sim players, using the wheel is part of the experience (myself included).

that's absolutely not true.

 

i'm someone who's actually quite good at using the keyboard when it comes to racing sims, so i think i'm qualified to say that no, it isn't better. in fact, i'd go as far as to say that it's a pretty major disadvantage. you don't have the same level of control as you do something where you can physically push, press, or turn a certain amount; you instead have to learn how to repeatedly tap the keys just enough in order to get anything done, which even still doesn't offer you the same level of control as a controller or wheel. it forces you to essentially fight an uphill battle, because you're stuck using buttons that only have two states.

 

that being said, you can get decent at it, but it requires a lot more practice than its alternatives. it just isn't ideal for these sorts of things.

[Monocled]

Joysticks have omnidirectional movement and you can choose the speed (You can do that with a wooting keyboard too), On most controllers you can't hit all of the buttons at the same (Like on a dualshock you can't press square and circle at the same time) which locks you out of certain combinations. For aiming i don't like joysticks because the movement feels "slidey", to me it feels like instead of just moving it where you want to it to go its more like tilting something to fall where you want it to, But i think it works for stuff like the Azeron Cyborg. Neither conventional controllers or keyboard & mouse are great peripherals in general though, Its just what people are used to so the design stays relatively the same.

[AbeAwesome]

4 hours ago, lizzieshinkickr said:

Firstly, that sounds like a personal skill that can be developed over time not facet of the hardware itself. Secondly, they actually make sticks with longer shafts to increase precision even further. Either way, you're comparing "literally no analog control" of a digital keyboard to "analog control" of a control stick. I don't even play that many games with controllers, but I think I would have a miserable time playing Spyro The Dragon or Super Mario 64 using a Keyboard exclusively (though I'm sure it can be done!). All I'm saying is "[Keyboard/Mouse is superior] in any game, in any application" is silly to assert.

You can hone your fine motor control skills and compensate for the small range-of-motion on a gamepad analog stick, but you'll never outperform a similarly skilled mouse user. That's just plain fact.

The stick extensions do help (in fact, I own three of the exact controller you linked, though the newest revision doesn't come with the longer sticks, sadly), but you're still stuck in a situation where your range of movement to go from -1 to +1 in the analog range is about 1-3 centimeters.

 

Mario 64 has analog movement control, so it falls into the exceptions I listed in the final paragraph—so yeah, you'd likely be missing on quite a bit of control depth using a keyboard.

 

3 hours ago, roadworx said:

i'm someone who's actually quite good at using the keyboard when it comes to racing sims, so i think i'm qualified to say that no, it isn't better. in fact, i'd go as far as to say that it's a pretty major disadvantage. you don't have the same level of control as you do something where you can physically push, press, or turn a certain amount; you instead have to learn how to repeatedly tap the keys just enough in order to get anything done, which even still doesn't offer you the same level of control as a controller or wheel. it forces you to essentially fight an uphill battle, because you're stuck using buttons that only have two states.

You say you play racing sims with a keyboard; do you actually play with a controller or wheel as well? if you do, I find is hard to believe you'd say it's easier to play a racing sim with a wheel... that's just straight up false. I play on both, and it's infinitely easier to perform well with digital inputs (yes, tap tap tapping all the way). It breaks verisimilitude, so I use a wheel for "the experience," but it's much easier to use a keyboard.

The advantage specifically comes when turning with the keys, I think the best of both worlds could be something like using an analog pedal for acceleration/breaking (the range on a decent pedal would actually allow you some precise control over the acceleration curve), and digital keyboard input for steering and shifting gears. Using a physical shifter would definitely put you in a pretty big disadvantage.

 

But since this is a DOOM forum... maybe I should do a playthrough of DOOM I + II using my racing setup?

• Wheel to turn,
• Pedals to move forward/backwards,
• Use the shifter to switch weapons,
• Use the "clutch" pads to shoot and strafe... Perfection!

[Gougaru]

I've done some very hard wads and record attempts using just a controller. It's all about practice and getting good with whatever tool you have. That being said kbm will always be a easier option to master 

[spacelion88]

3 hours ago, Monocled said:

On most controllers you can't hit all of the buttons at the same (Like on a dualshock you can't press square and circle at the same time) which locks you out of certain combinations.

Sure you can! :) You just have to practice to bend your fingers in new ways, like playing a guitar. You can use your pointer finger for square and middle finger for circle, whilst using your pinkie and/or ring finger on the shoulder buttons if you need those at the same time. Or if that doesn't work you can use your toes on the shoulder buttons instead of your pinkie. I've tried both. You just have to bend your body around too sometimes, like Yoga. Ironically I didn't learn to do this from playing any fighting games. I just remapped some buttons in Timesplitters so that the X and circle switched weapons and then square did something I can't recall right now....but for some reason I ended up having to press both square and circle at the same time while firing with the trigger/ shoulder button. This was partially because the D-pad no longer responded, which was formerly the default weapon-chooser.

 

[Doom-X-Machina]

Generally speaking i'll take keyboard and mouse over a controller anyday... however, it kinda is dependent on the game.

I used to play a lot of Call Of Duty (original Modern Warfare series... back when Call Of Duty was actually fucking awesome) on PlayStation 3 with a controller and loved it. Tried playing it on a PC and just couldn't do it... too many keys, too many functions, it was just awkward and clunky. I give props to Infinity Ward for managing to compress and compact all those options and functions into a standard-style controller. I found those games so much easier with a controller.

[spacelion88]

On 11/8/2024 at 9:46 PM, AbeAwesome said:

But since this is a DOOM forum... maybe I should do a playthrough of DOOM I + II using my racing setup?

• Wheel to turn,
• Pedals to move forward/backwards,
• Use the shifter to switch weapons,
• Use the "clutch" pads to shoot and strafe... Perfection!

 

[spacelion88]

Hells yeah! I'd watch that on Youtube ! Would also be interesting to try with the actual driving mods for Doom, where you pilot bikes and cars and sometimes even boats or I think there was a flight sim in Doom if I remember.

I can't wait for the omni-treadmill days though, where you're actually using your legs to run through corridors,

[Jerem]

On 11/8/2024 at 8:40 PM, Fonze said:

See shoot.wad, 

i googled it

don't google it