DOOM II demos [-complevel 2]

[doomdaniel95]

Insane stuff, 4shock. That pacifist is especially mind-blowing. I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but it looks like you included the wrong demo in your tyson zip; I'm seeing you end with 96% kills in 39.43, not like in the YT link.

[4shockblast]

5 hours ago, doomdaniel95 said:

Insane stuff, 4shock. That pacifist is especially mind-blowing. I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but it looks like you included the wrong demo in your tyson zip; I'm seeing you end with 96% kills in 39.43, not like in the YT link.

You're right, I zipped the wrong demo, fixed. That was my fastest attempt, just barely didn't get 100%. :D

[Decay]

Absolutely insane, amazing!

[Andrea Rovenski]

any estimate for total hours playing entryway?

[4shockblast]

59 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

any estimate for total hours playing entryway?

Good question, the zip I posted has 260 thousand demos. Halved to account for double restart, that's 130 thousand. An average of 10 second per demo (might be too high or low depending on how many maxes got that far) yields 36 hours; I guess the double restarts account for maybe a second each, so 3ish hours more. Which isn't that much I guess. More time was spent in practice, from segments, especially practicing the ending of pacifist. I would say anywhere between 40 and 100 hours or something, but it's hard to say. :D I did start the run last February or so, but there were months-long periods of me not running it, and I rarely ran it more than a few hours at a time, lately it was usually 1-2 at most a few times a week.

[Kinetic]

damn 260k demo attempts even if it's only 130k in reality that has to be approach some sort of record for attempt count

[msx2plus]

the human spirit is truly indomitable. even watching you grind shit out was brutal, can't begin to fathom actually doing it. enormous gg

[depr4vity]

Map01 NoMo in 4.94

 

lv01o494.zip

[slowfade]

GG 4shockblast, amazing records!

 

And depr4vity too. Nice!

[blob1024]

On 4/6/2024 at 7:15 AM, 4shockblast said:

 

Map 01 UV -fast in 0:39. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZ683Rjn_8

wow, it happened

the video I admired probably the most for its semplicity, and perfection, got beaten up

I wondered if xit's would ever be passed in this lvl1 demo, I honestly checked it some years ago for 30min and was hardly getting under 1minute and therefore never tried it again.

that silly, quick attempt of mine made me instead watching over and over his demo adoring it more and more each view

really amazing result, brilliantly executed

[Dogmachine]

Map 31 (Normal exit) Stroller in 1:05.46

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8tlRRrCQx0

lv31str10546.zip

[BahdKo]

On 4/6/2024 at 8:15 AM, 4shockblast said:

And finally...

Map 01 Pacifist in 0:04.97.

 

 

Welp. Wouldn't have seen that coming.

[skogsto09]

Map31 UV-MAX in 01:58

 

lv31m158.zip

[Andrea Rovenski]

fantastic demo!! really smooth shots, too

[Kinetic]

Great demo skogsto, you have always been and still are one of the legends of the community, and you can never really compare across eras of anything very fairly, so great achievements back then are as impressive as great achievements now. Thanks for bridging the gap between the old days when I wasn't even born, to the modern age of 2024 in doom speedrunning ^_^

[blob1024]

7 hours ago, skogsto09 said:

Map31 UV-MAX in 01:58

 

lv31m158.zip

great demo, and great words

i pretty much think the very same about my feelings towards game, community and my own aging (:

 

[doomdaniel95]

MAP11 nomo 100 in 58.74.

lv11os058.zip

[Looper]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:29 AM, skogsto09 said:

Map31 UV-MAX in 01:58

 

lv31m158.zip

Heh, definitely didn't expect it to be beaten by you, but then I realized: maybe you have some history with this map, and seems like that the case.

 

However, I disagree with the age thing. It won't slow you down in a long time. The world has changed quite a bit as far as I know due to computers and the internet. The traditional "you have to be under 25/30 yrs to be competitive" does not apply for "e-sports". There are people who are over 40, and run below 10 seconds in the 100m dash, hehe.

 

Also, there are now digitalized tools to see one's progress. Like I know my reaction times at the age of 34 are still the same as at the age of 16. In the past, it was easier for people to use age as an excuse much more smoothly, because there were no evidence of their own record :---D And no, I am not saying the years won't slow one down ever. I've seen some 60+ years old play Playerunknown's battleground, and their reaction times seem to not slow down much, because the reaction times were at around 200 ms on 'normal reactionary stuff', not just some "reaction time test" bubble.

 

The real problem what comes with age is that because the learning curve is exponential, it is the recent effort that dictates the 'current state'. You see these "young kids" blasting as fast, or if not even faster than you at the older age. The real strength is to throw in a lot of attempts, aka hard work (just do it), due to the exponential learning curvature, because there's actually not that much to learn. This leads to a shifted perspective, where one thinks he used to be faster/better, but now he is older, hence he must be slow(er)!

 

The same thing tends to apply in real-life to many things, not just computer/digital games. The skill cap is the same, but the learning curve is so much faster in every field due to the advancements of technology. Even Hikaru Nakamura, the world's 2nd(?) best chess player, has changed/shifted his opinion towards a similar perspective. One thing is for certain: the learning curve is crazy fast everywhere nowadays compared to the past, and it is not slowing down. AI will help us to ramp up the learning even more.

[Hitherto]

9 hours ago, Looper said:

However, I disagree with the age thing. It won't slow you down in a long time. The world has changed quite a bit as far as I know due to computers and the internet. The traditional "you have to be under 25/30 yrs to be competitive" does not apply for "e-sports".

And I disagree with that. Pure reaction may be the same, but your brain lagged more and more in processing it. This means, basically, I can spot that target as fast as always, but hit it with slightly bigger delay. May be in DM games it is not much an issue, but with complex of monster patterns found in doom wads it is.
In my 47 now I can't stay close to own short maxes which I do at 30-33, even by hard grind.

[xit-vono]

I think Karpov said that he's just as good at blitz as he ever was, but he doesn't have the energy for long games like he used to.

[blob1024]

to me "aging" issues are different from reaction time or skills:

1) free time

2) patience

3) headaches

4) once again- free time.

5) demotivation for the points above or others crushing in 1h what I could achieve in 3-4 days of dedication

 

=)

[4shockblast]

TBH, I'm not that old relative to some in the community, so too early to tell, but I am probably healthier than I was back in my early 20s, so at least from a stamina perspective, I don't think I'm disadvantaged to me back then. I don't know how critical reaction time is to Doom; it can be, probably, in some specific maps, but in a lot of scenarios you can plan out a lot of your moves ahead of time for that. My hands have also managed to survive the various excruciating grinds I put myself through, so hopefully they can last awhile longer still. :^) IMO, the only things that age affected for me is having enough free time and at times, a bit less motivation for random grinds, although the latter is mostly just due to how many runs I've already done. In 2013, it was exciting to table fill some random nonsense PWADs, and a lot of that excitement is just not coming back, heh, both because of how many times I've already done that and how high my personal standards and general standards in the community have gotten.

 

Technology definitely made a difference as well, but I don't think it's the biggest factor either, although it depends on how you qualify its benefits, I guess. I've almost exclusively run under the same constraints for the past ten years, and the big changes that I really took on that are the result of modern source ports are in-game restart (which helps a ton in making runs more bearable, but IMO doesn't make anything possible that was impossible before) and easier quickstart. The latter I think is a dumb part of the game anyway, but again, it's more of a bearability thing than anything as the same quickstarts were possible back in the day; of course, having it easier means fewer attempts overall and less time, so it's a definite improvement, but that sort of thing only really affects very specific runs, like pa01 and a lot of the random meme runs I've done that happen to be tic optimal (e.g., 1337 map 25). The vast majority of runs, even movement-heavy ones, are much less affected by that and more by your raw skill, and IMO most of the difference between me now and in 2018 or 2013 or whatever is just higher precision.

 

Case in point, half the time, in the past couple years, I've been running on a laptop, and often on the shitty laptop keyboard, and even with that setup hardly any of my runs pre-like 2019 are that competitive. :^) Other than a solid mouse, I really don't think there's a ton that matters that much from a tech standpoint, unless of course, your computer can't handle a particular Doom map and is lagging like crazy or something.

[Andy Johnsen]

13 hours ago, 4shockblast said:

 

Technology definitely made a difference as well, but I don't think it's the biggest factor either, although it depends on how you qualify its benefits, I guess. I've almost exclusively run under the same constraints for the past ten years, and the big changes that I really took on that are the result of modern source ports are in-game restart (which helps a ton in making runs more bearable, but IMO doesn't make anything possible that was impossible before) and easier quickstart. The latter I think is a dumb part of the game anyway, but again, it's more of a bearability thing than anything as the same quickstarts were possible back in the day; of course, having it easier means fewer attempts overall and less time, so it's a definite improvement, but that sort of thing only really affects very specific runs, like pa01 and a lot of the random meme runs I've done that happen to be tic optimal (e.g., 1337 map 25). The vast majority of runs, even movement-heavy ones, are much less affected by that and more by your raw skill, and IMO most of the difference between me now and in 2018 or 2013 or whatever is just higher precision.

 

 

 

This point I do disagree with, tech made a quite significant difference I belive :)

Perks such as in-game killcounter and secret trigger notification, in-game restarts, better quickstarts, high res, the ease of rehearsing certain parts quickly; just generally cutting back on the workload needed to practice runs. When you make the process easier and less taxing, that translates into better results in general. Small differences matter quite a bit in this context.

Not to mention the hardware improvements have obviously been huge. Doing runs with a ps2 roller ball mouse in 1999 or shitty early optical ones was *significantly* different than doing runs on todays hardware. There's no two ways about this :) I'm not playing competitively anymore, but I kept playing the game for all these years, and it's quite the difference compared to the old days, though I doubt my skill ceiling raised much if any since about 2005.
 

Players definitely improved with the generations, there's simply more players and better players today, but disregarding the obvious differences and advancements somewhat discredits efforts of times gone by. I'm positive an exceptional cat like Sedlo would be able to compete with the top players of today and improve on his old efforts, if he practiced up for a while with modern tools. 

People get better a lot quicker now than back in the 90ies and early 2ks. So the very peaks are higher for each generation. I do think Looper and Kinetic are examples of the top tire of what we've seen regardless of generational shifts and improvements in ports / hardware / tools. Simply amazing talents, those do exist. 

As much as I love the Karl Jobst vids on youtube, I do feel he misses out on an opportunity to explain the conditions the various runs were made under, given the time periods. For random people who do not fully understand what goes into speedrunning the game, this creates a simplified picture (which for the sake of entertainment might be the best way to go, but condition factual historical context is cool imo).

As for age, I do think it matters, but 43 is not advanced enough for it to be automatically detrimental. It's probable he is a bit more refined now than in the early 2k's, but on top of that there's better tools, there's some better understanding of the game, and a lot more runs and players to look at and emulate though - and that helps :)

Edited May 8 by Andy Johnsen

[xit-vono]

I agree that there are a bunch of little changes that add up to help modern runners. One of them is that modern source ports make it much easier to see spectres in the dark.

[4shockblast]

36 minutes ago, Andy Johnsen said:

Perks such as in-game killcounter and secret trigger notification, in-game restarts, better quickstarts, high res, the ease of rehearsing certain parts quickly; just generally cutting back on the workload needed to practice runs. When you make the process easier and less taxing, that translates into better results in general. Small differences matter quite a bit in this context.

That is true, compared to really early days, I think the differences are quite significant, especially with respect to the hardware. :) I guess if someone were to set up DOS Doom today, it would not be as bad because they could still have a modern monitor, mouse, etc. but back then was a different story, and as I wasn't around, I cannot truly compare. Compared to like ten years ago, when I started, it's not that much, and mostly just convenience and ease of use, which still makes a difference of course but doesn't make anything possible that was completely impossible when I started.

 

I also guess I missed one aspect and that's practice and understanding of the game; these 100% make things way easier now than even when I started. Having keyframes, rewinds, in-game position display, and rerecording significantly reduces the amount of time needed to practice and get better at a specific run. IMO, especially with regards to the recent past, these improvements have been one of the biggest differences from a tech standpoint in terms of making runs easier. Not being able to properly practice or see what someone else is doing would make speedrunning much harder for sure.

 

I do agree someone like Sedlo could probably come back and compete at a very high level, would be awesome to see that. :P

[doomdaniel95]

So much intelligent discussion, and I'm here to interrupt with some crappy nomo 100 tablefillers, heh. I just went through over the last couple of days and recorded on all possible maps that didn't already have a demo on DSDA:

LV13 in 2:03.97

LV17 in 1:32.17

LV18 in 1:09.86

LV20 in 1:15.63

LV23 in 0:42.66

LV24 in 1:47.06

LV26 in 0:47.77
LV28 in 1:03.34

lvos_tablefillers_dd95.zip

[BahdKo]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:29 AM, skogsto09 said:

Map31 UV-MAX in 01:58

 

lv31m158.zip

Oh hi! I know who dat be! :)

 

[Looper]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:02 AM, Andy Johnsen said:

As much as I love the Karl Jobst vids on youtube, I do feel he misses out on an opportunity to explain the conditions the various runs were made under, given the time periods. For random people who do not fully understand what goes into speedrunning the game, this creates a simplified picture (which for the sake of entertainment might be the best way to go, but condition factual historical context is cool imo).

 

You have point there. I was helping/talking with Karl about the lv01 in 4.97 video, and we were discussing about if the conditions should be discussed. However, the video was already lengthy enough, so Karl thought it is better to omit that part, and maybe explain it in another Doom related video.

 

On 5/7/2024 at 4:09 PM, Hitherto said:

In my 47 now I can't stay close to own short maxes which I do at 30-33, even by hard grind.

Lol, did you get the "not aged well" from that post?

[doomdaniel95]

Beating a couple of other nomo 100 tablefillers:

LV25 in 45.97

LV27 in 1:07.89 (standard 7/8 secrets, bonus 1:09.29 demo included with 100% secrets)

 

lv25os045.zip

lv27os107.zip

[4shockblast]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:10 PM, doomdaniel95 said:

So much intelligent discussion, and I'm here to interrupt with some crappy nomo 100 tablefillers, heh. I just went through over the last couple of days and recorded on all possible maps that didn't already have a demo on DSDA:

LV13 in 2:03.97

LV17 in 1:32.17

LV18 in 1:09.86

LV20 in 1:15.63

LV23 in 0:42.66

LV24 in 1:47.06

LV26 in 0:47.77
LV28 in 1:03.34

lvos_tablefillers_dd95.zip

Can you repost this either as all the zips separately or all the lmps and txts in one zip? My script doesn't support zips of zips (yet).