PC will not receive additional modding tools beyond SnapMap

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Roundtable with Pete Hines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=133&v=lgUB8aH9eZI

Highlights:

"Everything that we're doing on the mod side is going to be through SnapMap"

You will not be able to create outdoor spaces with SnapMap.

You will not be able to create large open spaces like in the opening of the demo with SnapMap.

SnapMap only does smaller interior spaces.

PC will not receive additional modding tools beyond SnapMap.

[DooM_RO]

That doesn't rule out a more advanced version of it. Also, although M Stratton was full of PR speak, I doubt he'd outright lie to us.

[Avoozl]

Ha, I knew it, such a darn shame though.

[DooM_RO]

He didn't outright deny what you paraphrased

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=133&v=lgUB8aH9eZI

Snapmap talk starts at 10:00

[DooM_RO]

Also, if Snapmap gains traction but modders want better tools (and Id/Bethesda decide not to), maybe Linguica can convince Bethesda to release a more advanced version like he convinced Carmack to release the Source Code or start a petition.

We could even use Doom 3: Phobos footage to demonstrate that it would not be a waste of time on their side to release more powerful tools. Phobos would show that at least a part of the community is commited to making high quality total conversions that require a lot of skill and dedication Maybe the Phobos team could do it together with Linguica. I linked the Phobos thread on Garrett Young's twitter and he was mighty impressed.

[Linguica]

DooM_RO said:

maybe Linguica can convince Bethesda

[DooM_RO]

@Linguica

Well, on the Doomwiki it says we have the source code because of you. No one says you can't do it again.

[Linguica]

DooM_RO said:

Well, on the Doomwiki it says we have the source code because of you. No one says you can't do it again.

I don't think it says that anywhere, and if it does, it's wrong. If there's one non-id guy to thank, it's Bernd Kreimeier, who was a programmer who contacted id about maybe writing a book on the Doom source code. The book didn't pan out but his work on cleaning up the source code was what made it possible to be released.

[DooM_RO]

Linguica said:

I don't think it says that anywhere, and if it does, it's wrong. If there's one non-id guy to thank, it's Bernd Kreimeier, who was a programmer who contacted id about maybe writing a book on the Doom source code. The book didn't pan out but his work on cleaning up the source code was what made it possible to be released.

Ok, I'm sorry then. I must have misinterpreted this "He used his influence in October 1999 in convincing John Carmack to relicense the Doom source code under the GNU GPL." http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Andrew_Stine_(Linguica)

Still, if the game is good, people like it and really want better modding tools, I don't see why we shouldn't speak up. It would just have to be well-coordinated.

[Koko Ricky]

Considering how nearly everything about neo-Doom seems to want--quite aggressively, I might add--to appeal to loyal fans, I'm really surprised by this. Does it not realize that it's only with in-depth editors like DoomBuilder than the community has remained so prominent? If all we had was a SnapMap equivalent for classic Doom, there wouldn't be nearly as much activity.

[scifista42]

GoatLord said:

nearly everything about neo-Doom seems to want--quite aggressively, I might add--to appeal to loyal fans,

I've never got an impression that Doom 4 wanted to appeal to people like Doomworld's mappers and players around Wads & Mods at all. The "loyal fans" are more like Brutal Doom fans and people who claim they liked Doom a long time ago yet they're all accustomized into playing modern games nowadays.

[Jaxxoon R]

Twatmap

[Shaviro]

DooM_RO said:

Also, if Snapmap gains traction but modders want better tools (and Id/Bethesda decide not to), maybe Linguica can convince Bethesda to release a more advanced version like he convinced Carmack to release the Source Code or start a petition.

We could even use Doom 3: Phobos footage to demonstrate that it would not be a waste of time on their side to release more powerful tools. Phobos would show that at least a part of the community is commited to making high quality total conversions that require a lot of skill and dedication Maybe the Phobos team could do it together with Linguica. I linked the Phobos thread on Garrett Young's twitter and he was mighty impressed.

Pholingbos?
I don't know if using Doom 3 generally or Phobos specifically as an example of a productive community is a good idea. Sure, Phobos is pretty massive and I'd say the quality is well above the original game, but it *has* been 11 years and there's not really much to show for it besides Phobos and a couple of others. Phobos won't change anything for id. For the people who will play the mod it will be a nice quality experience, but the popularity battle was lost back in 2004. Doom 3 definitely lost, mods or not. Looking at Doom4, snapmap is going to do a hell of a lot more for id than doom3radiant or idstudio did for Doom3 and Rage. Mod tools for Doom3 resulted in a couple of content mods (like us) and the circle-jerk "Doom3 can do it too" community known as Doom3world that was obsessed with trying to force the engine to do things it wasn't made for. Rage's mod tools spawned absolutely nothing.

Personally I'm not really interested in Snapmap and I don't really know if I would be interested in Doom4Edit or whatever unless the editing process has been improved dramatically without going all model prefabs. That said, I do see a few reasons why editing for Doom4 would be smoother than the same for Doom3.

Of course, anything that advertises Phobos to id and others is aces in my book ;)

[kelliegator]

Well, someone's gonna have to explain these contradictory statements from id and Pete Hines.

[Gzegzolka]

The more I hear about restrictions in new Doom4 the more I want to say "shame You id software". Even Valve look on what modders do and highlight best works like Portal Stories Mel or Black Mesa. By doing that they made not only highlighted mod makers popular, but different games medias write about them and make them popular too (plus Valve can offer those people work and they are already experienced with source engine, and some mods can be turn into own IP like Portal, Team Fortres2, Left4dead).

[quakke]

Basically it seems like snapmap isn't gonna please the more advanced user.

Snapmap is nice i admit that but there is a difference. If someone who never made maps before, now all the sudden wants to make maps, snapmap should be easy and powerful enough for them to be happy. But then there is the more advanced user who wants to literally make their own stuff and thus prefabs just won't do it, because there is only so many ways you can re-arrange some pre-built rooms and corridors until you've done all you could with them. I forexample want to make my own wacky geometry because that is the only thing that doesn't get old. If i can make my own geometry, then it literally means i can create pretty much any shape worlds i want.

At the moment it sounds like even iconic DOOM 1 and 2 maps can't be 100% faithfully recreated, because there is no ability to make something from scratch.

[Zemini]

If this is true, you can bet that this game will NOT have nearly as much legacy as Classic did.

We need ot have more advanced features.

In regards to snap map, didn't they say they will provide us with a lot more modding tools later after release? I also hope that people can make their own map pieces for other people to use for their maps.

Sounds like more limits thanks for fucking consoles. This is when hackers/crackers become our friends.

[Avoozl]

Honestly it seems to me that ID/Bethesda now only care about making money by aiming for the lowest common denominator moreso than simply appeasing the actual Doom community which has persisted through the classics with open mod support for 2 decades+

[DMPhobos]

Im confused, why are they closing the door for modding? (Let's face it, snapmap it's cool and all for what it is, but it's not modding in the true sense of what modding is)
Id software has never closed the door for mods, and Bethesda it's one of the most modder friendly company (i mean, just look at the fallout 4 modding plan, and that's a game that has not been released yet!) so im confused about why they think that this is a good idea. It's like if they have no faith in mods for the new doom, other than just making maps with some scripting... and that's about it.

No new weapon mods, no new monster mods, no new content mods. Nope. Just some maps with some scripting

[kelliegator]

DMPhobos said:

Im confused, why are they closing the door for modding? (Let's face it, snapmap it's cool and all for what it is, but it's not modding in the true sense of what modding is)
Id software has never closed the door for mods, and Bethesda it's one of the most modder friendly company (i mean, just look at the fallout 4 modding plan, and that's a game that has not been released yet!) so im confused about why they think that this is a good idea. It's like if they have no faith in mods for the new doom, other than just making maps with some scripting... and that's about it.

No new weapon mods, no new monster mods, no new content mods. Nope. Just some maps with some scripting

I'm curious, define "scripting". I'm no tech wizard but it does seem that Snapmap lets you do custom game modes and work with game logic like maybe character speed and things like that.

I'm optimistic about Snapmap but mods are very important to Doom so shutting the doors on that would be a big mistake. They still have until spring 2016 to change or make up their minds so we'll see how that goes, I guess.

Still, confused over contradictory statements since Marty Stratton seemed to say mod tools will be available at some point? This needs to be cleared up.

[DooM_RO]

http://mashable.com/2015/07/29/doom-marty-stratton-interview/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link

More info here.

[tourettes]

I don't get it, they are trying to sell Doom 4 as living up to the roots of Doom from 1993, but they give us an editor that is a joke. The original Doom was all about modding the entire game, YOU CAN'T with snapmap.

[Buckshot]

cross platform compatibility. Likely everything built in snap may has to be able to be imported across the board.

expected. but be happy they gave us that amount of modding capability. they could have always opted for none.

[Zemini]

Buckshot said:

cross platform compatibility. Likely everything built in snap may has to be able to be imported across the board.

expected. but be happy they gave us that amount of modding capability. they could have always opted for none.

Then what happens when the consoles become dated? Doom modding/map making community dies with it? Fuck consoles and the people who play them if they think that is fair. PC Doom 4 should have its own separate section for maps and the like.

I really hope a lot of people bring this up on the official bethesdaNet forums when they become live.

[Buckshot]

Zemini said:

Then what happens when the consoles become dated? Doom modding/map making community dies with it? Fuck consoles and the people who play them if they think that is fair. PC Doom 4 should have its own separate section for maps and the like.

I really hope a lot of people bring this up on the official bethesdaNet forums when they become live.

I never said I disagreed with you. But I am saying, if that's the best they can give us, well... it's better than nothing. PC gaming and Console gaming are in completely different era's than they were back when DOOM originally came out, and it's apparent today that simply getting in a basic mapmaker with basic scripting (such as many other games) is the primary focus of todays game developers to appease crowds across multiple platforms for content sharing rather than give certain high-level priveleges to a single crowd.

In fact, snapmap is a giant better step forward than we ever got bundled with DOOM 3 or Rage (or any id game after Quake 3, in fact)which those tools that were either promised and never delivered, or non existent.

Maybe they'll see how it does, and with enough feedback and suggestion, reconsider at a later point.

Though if I was a dev at id software, telling me "Fuck You/Fuck Consoles/Fuck Whatever" would certainly not help that possibility.

[Zemini]

I didn't say you disagreed at all. I am just tired of all the people (mainly from the blogs and news articles) that tell me this is how things should be. The audacity of a console kiddy telling us Doomer's that it would be unfair if they gave PC players more modding utilities?! That is where my nerves get pinched.

The sooner id realizes that map makers need more to work with, the better.

[Quasar]

Everything created in SnapMap will likely also automatically belong to Bethesda. Be prepared to see that clearly spelled out in a ToS screen you gotta click through the first time you use it. I've anticipated it since the announcement.

[Zemini]

That is pretty standard with everything isn't it? Basically you can't profit off it is what they are talking about.

Pretty sure the same applies to Classic Doom stuff.

[Quasar]

I am pretty sure it is not at all the way that we function. I'd like for example to see Bethesda take something like BTSX and package it as an expansion w/o the permissions of anybody involved in making it. They wouldn't do that. But this new system would enable them to do that kind of thing, if my hunches about it are correct.

In fact, I suspect that "out-of-band" distribution of mods will also be disallowed, as this is going to be treated like SaaS. Installing mods downloaded from SnapMap, through SnapMap, will IMHO probably be the only allowed channel. There will be no Doom 4 equivalent of /idgames. And of course this means that, eventually, when the thing is no longer profitable, it'll shut down and all the content will go with it. Probably just in time for the next Doom game to come out :)

I am a famous cynic so take this with a pinch of salt for now; just, don't be surprised if I turn out to have made a conservative estimate of the amount of BS that'll be stuffed in the EULA.

[VGamingJunkie]

It's not out of the question for Bethesda to approve of extra modding options, GECK for both their Fallout games were pretty flexible in what kinds of mods they allowed people to do.