The DWmegawad Club plays: Bloodstain

[baja blast rd.]

map07

This map has a lot of problems. I don't want to be mean or anything, but I have to be blunt. Let's go fight by fight (I'm still on UV):

1) First fight is easily the best in the map. Simple but a nice showcase of the new baron's increased firepower. There is a lot of healing available, but taking damage comes at the cost of eroding your blue armor -- or, if you choose to save that armor, uh, getting killed? Yeah, let's go with that.

2a) The traditional manc and arachnotron encounters are somewhat trivial fights in the "you can circle around the arena lethargically while shooting things, and nothing will ever hit you" category. The arachnotrons can at least make vague gestures at blocking you, which might get your heart beating a bit, but the gray strip bordering the arena is itself bordered by . . . you guessed it . . . monster-blocking lines, so you're never really in any danger at all. There are too many of both mancs and 'trons given the low threat level of the setup. The fight would be more dynamic if some of those monsters were swapped out for clusters of imps and pinkies and mixed hitscanners, in a way reminiscent of map06's enjoyable space-carving fights. Maybe a few cacos could also descend from up high.

2b) The cyberdemon that warps in after the spiders is completely harmless. Not just easy to fight, but literally harmless. You can fire over the four turrets, but it can't. Being a cyberdemon, it's scary, at least while the other monsters are alive. But it's mostly a big time sink. Navigation to the keys and then to the final arena is very irritating. You have to ride a lift a minimum of two separate times (you only need one of the two keys), and that number could easily be higher (you probably won't know that you only need one of the keys, and you might board a teleporter in front of the third arena first). In fact I'm not even sure why the player is made to grab keys, because progression can easily function without it. To make the cyber harder to ditch? Pretty sure that simply making a beeline for the final area while the cyber is still alive would be by a large margin the most dangerous thing in the second phase of the map, so it doesn't seem necessary to go to such lengths to prevent it.

3) The spider mastermind is pointless and as harmless as the cyber. I took a snapshot of this during my playthrough in February.



The revenants are easily the most dangerous thing in the map, but fighting in there is just plain irritating, no matter what your approach is. Running back to the second area is more practical, but if you fall, prepare to ride the lift again.

One thing I appreciated from this part is that grabbing only one of the blue or red keys makes the AVs at the end more dangerous -- you have to wriggle out though a smaller space. :)

[Jayextee]

MAP07 - THE AMPITHEATER

As a rule, I like Du Hast by Rammstein. It's a stompy dancefloor filler, light on any kind of musical or lyrical depth, but with a accessible groove that makes a good quick 3 minutes of dancing like a lunatic (read, omnidirectional head-banging with little regard for others in the club space). But not really a general MIDI Doom backing.

I feel like that's symbolic of Dead Simple remakes, a thing I'm guilty of doing myself. Funny how things tend to be clearer from the outside looking in sometimes. Either way, Dead Simple itself was great fun and had its place in Doom II -- but anything else feels like an ill-fitting MIDI rendition.

This 'ampitheater' comprises three main phases, the Hellknights-with-Revenant-turrets phase, the Dead-Simple-with-Cyberdemon-daddy phase, and the small-space-with-a-Mastermind-and-of-course-more-Revenants phase.

First phase seems like a great pistol-start entry point as it hands everything to the player on a pedestal. Literally. This pedestal being the trigger for the first fight, there's enough time to scope the place out before the battle; rocket launcher at the ready as I just *knew* those cages would be a priority. Correctamundo, as after one lap with the rocket launcher it was SSG cleanup time with HKs and the occasional imp in the sidelines.

Second phase, if you can Dead Simple, you can do this. Cyberdemon's barely a threat at the end there, probably a nuisance for retrieving the two keys in this area but I killed him first; after some scuffling with HKs that turned out to be less-than-easy to initiate.

Third phase saw Mastermind stuck on the plinth edge as I played "hold the mouse button down" to make short SSG work of her. Cue skeletons triggered by walking onto the plinth for the last key, not so cramped a space as to prevent me circling the outside and filling them with buckshot.

After the key-bars, surprise Archvile. I wasn't ready, so dashed forward hoping the switch was the exit. AND BY GOLLY IT WAS.

A so-so level, and probably the hint I need to lay off making Dead Simple clones for my own MAP07s.

[40oz]

A lot of the responses to this mapset are glaringly negative. Bloodstain isn't exactly without it's flaws, but has Pipicz made maps in the past that were way better? I don't really get it, I think this is a really good wad in its own right. It seems like people have really elevated expectations or something.

[Jayextee]

I'm fully willing to wait it out and expecting better things later on, personally. This is apparently a pretty good wad and I don't mind some less-than-stellar maps on the way to the good ones; bigger picture and all that.

[baja blast rd.]

40oz said:

A lot of the responses to this mapset are glaringly negative. Bloodstain isn't exactly without it's flaws, but has Pipicz made maps in the past that were way better? I don't really get it, I think this is a really good wad in its own right. It seems like people have really elevated expectations or something.

Can you give an example of a response that is 'glaringly' negative? All of the criticism seems quite fair to me, citing specific issues with the maps.

[mouldy]

MAP07 - "The Amphitheater”

The good old map07 arena battle, here split into a few stages. Nothing massively challenging on this difficulty, though the cyber was a nice surprise, and I'm sure a couple of unlucky rev missiles would have made me sweat a bit. The mid section with the lifts and teleports was a bit annoying to navigate what with it being so symmetrical, its hard to know which direction to head in without checking the automap, and the keys get buried under manc corpses. Having said that you only need one of them to get out plus the yellow key. I guess that begs the question of why there are two of them...

[Rayziik]

I'm gonna start streaming the first 8 maps in a few minutes, if anyone wants to watch me die a lot! :D

Here's the VOD: https://www.twitch.tv/rayziiksenpai/v/76802481

Alright, about 2 hours of playtime on the first 8 maps (pretend I am European and it's after midnight, mkay?) and I can say I am pleasantly surprised to be enjoying the wad so far. I did catch a few glimpses of meat-wall abuse, mainly the HKs and demons/spectres that just block some areas off. Also, a few monster encounters were rendered mostly null by a few poor mapping decisions. Pain elementals in MAP05 towards the end were mostly non-threats due to the blocking grates in the area, and the final mancubus is just lol. And some poorly placed light things that blocked monsters and projectiles among most of the maps. Not that common though, still noticeable when you come across it.

I do have some pet peeves of course, and two of them seem to be common practice in this wad. Insta-pop floors in full view (and right on top of the player no less) always make me cringe. An insta-teleport looks a lot cleaner in my eyes, and at least has a more perceptible cue. The end rooms of a couple maps like MAP08 had arch-viles in them. The only real threat is that they suddenly appear right on top of you and proceed to try and burn you. Also the hitscanners in MAP06, which is probably my favorite of this group, had my confused the first time and slightly annoyed the second time. Plus the arch-vile immediately after that...

My other peeve are the mid-tex grate bridges. I hate the way they look and I hate the ghost noises you get when you cross 'under' them and hit the triggers for them repeatedly. But this is mostly just a style choice nitpick.

But the worst map had to be MAP07 honestly. And not even because it was a Dead Simple clone to me, just the fact it seemed like a lazily executed idea, complete with poor SMM usage. AND two arch-viles (of whom I unintentionally cheesed) in the exit area. Blegh.

So in the end, MAP02 and MAP07 were probably my least favorites, MAP07 as outlined above, and MAP02 because it was just so blandly short. Just a hiccup in the midst of MAP01 and MAP03.

My favorite would be MAP06 (aside from that one room with the insta-pops), plenty of good encounters and good design/detail choices make for a good tech-base map. Ah, tech-bases... something I just haven't played much of lately. Refreshing!

Will stop by again next week! :D

[sudo459]

40oz said:

A lot of the responses to this mapset are glaringly negative. Bloodstain isn't exactly without it's flaws, but has Pipicz made maps in the past that were way better? I don't really get it, I think this is a really good wad in its own right. It seems like people have really elevated expectations or something.

Well, I got up to map 12 before I had to stop playing. I believe any and all criticisms are warranted.

[Rayziik]

I agree, there are some warranted criticisms for the mapset. Maybe it just seems like mostly negative because people are only commenting on the negatives so far, but as I can tell it seems mostly justified.

Whether it's pet peeve or nitpicky criticism is to be interpreted I suppose.

Also, updated my post above to reflect on maps 01 - 08.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP07: Amphitheater
100% kills, 1/1 "secret"

I'm pretty much in concordance with rwdpa on this one. The first fight is the best by default, as it's the only one with any real threat... gotta take out those rev cage snipers first. The manc/arachnatron setup is laughably simply to circle-strafe, and the cyberdemon, while a little surprise, isn't much better (especially since poor cybie can be shot over the columns if you so choose). And the Spider Mastermind can't even move, at least on ZDoom... just stuck walking in place due to lack of space. Combine that with weird, unnecessary progression (why teleporters instead of just lifts? Why the extra, pointless keys?) and this one is a dud.

[Spectre01]

Map 08: Toxic Sea 3x100% UV-Max (11:11)

Now this is a really solid map. The encounters are fun and there's plenty of ammo on pistol start for some rocket/plasma action. Also, some of the ammo is balanced in such a way that you have to run into infested territory to stock up, rather than shooting through doors. Although you're still welcome to do that if that's your thing or you're playing continuous.

Rather hectic start with some strong Imp and Caco opposition. Grab the Berserk to your left and punch your way through to the SSG and armour and blast away at the flying tomatoes. The first room is full of hitscanners so don't rush in and take cover between SSG reloads. A lot of them will probably die to infighting too. Also, don't forget to flip the switch on the left like I did in my demo. Grab the rocket launcher and the ammo outside for an arena style encounter with a lot of Mancs and Cacos. Positioning is important here so that you don't get caught in the crossfire.

Grab the Plasma Rifle and blue key and carefully work your way up clearing the blue room. The switch trap with the 2nd Berserk can be nasty since the Archvile will happily roast you if you stay in there/get trapped by the warping Demons and Spectres. Run/punch/shoot your way out and quickly take cover behind something. Plasma/rocket the Vile and then shoot a bit into the pit so you have to room to jump down and punch out the rest of the junk there.

By this time I was low on rockets, so I used some plasma and SSG on the Barons and company coming from the now open large main door. Priority #1 is killing the 6 caged Revenants using some rockets found in the room and then roasting the Fatso. The second side room is quite fun since it contains like 20 or something hitscanners. Pump a bunch of rockets in there for some gibbing goodness and then clean up. There's also a switch in one of the balconies that gives you access to the Soulsphere. Also, nice ship in the background.

There's a fun Cyberdemon duel when you get back, but you should have plenty of plasma left for it. Now the exit trap is a bit cheeky. If you rush the bridge you'll be greeted by an Archvile in the front and a bunch of Cacos blocking your retreat. If you carefully step forward just slightly, you can aggro a bunch of them and then safely kill them with rockets or what have you.

Also, the slime is consistently not damaging, which is good. I hate it when wad authors can't decide whether their slime/lava is meant to hurt you or not.

40oz said:

A lot of the responses to this mapset are glaringly negative.

This happens with nearly every club playthrough though. Almost every wad gets its due share of roasting regardless of how well received it generally is. I've been really enjoying Epic 2 lately, so I skimmed that thread and found a lot of unhappy campers there too.

sudo459 said:

Well, I got up to map 12 before I had to stop playing. I believe any and all criticisms are warranted.

Which difficulty did you play on and did you pistol start?

[Pirx]

MAP04 - "Fallout Shelter

the start: a mix of imps and demons (and one z-sec) in pretty tight quarters, and you spawn right between them. an armor and a berserk pack near some stairs made clear to me what is required, so i cleared the room with boxing skills and some infighting. then i went up the stairs and found a shotgun and a chaingun with ammo. facepalm #1.

next there's this corridor with this ambush (pretty harmless if you move quickly) and a secret switch. i think the title makes it clear that the action is taking place in some bunker, the dark section with former humans of all sorts is pretty nasty if you get caught in a crossfire, so better back up to the light and shoot them safely, especially as more closets open if you advance.

an archvile is revealed in front of the blue door and requires either sniping from the stairs, or door kung-fu with the ssg. after this i found the rocket launcher in the acid pool (which didn't even hurt). facepalm #2.
went on and punched the few revenants out of spite.



MAP05 - "The Intersection

a cramped, hitscanner-centric brown base. i snagged on those railings and torches a lot and sometimes the gunners are hard to see behind, before they open fire. hence i liked the map better on the second playthrough, when i knew where they are and blew them up. there are several boxes of rockets, so you can make short work of everything. the rocket launcher is first found in a secret, then "officially" in the flooded area with the pain elementals. nukage doesn't hurt, again. the music is less fitting, i think, but it can be ignored.



MAP06 - "Anomaly Entrance

quake2 music, that's much better. pick up armor, ammo and the ssg and keep quiet until you're at the upper gallery, or life gets ugly with all hitscanners appearing there. the map is an interconnected series of rooms and corridors with mostly brown brick and clay walls, and rusty metal supports, so... very brown. you can easily snag on those metal supports, which gives the map a claustrophobic feeling in places. every time you pick up a key, the bars in front of it lower, letting you pass and reach the correspondig locked door. this gets a bit repetitive, same as the look of the map. thankfully there are ok fights, and plenty of rockets and cells available.

the final fight consists in circle-strafing a group of improved barons, that throw fireballs with both hands. not bad, but i didn't realize what the deal with them was immediately, and i think a group of mancubi would still have been more threatening.



MAP07 - "The Amphitheater”

rammstein with "du hast", that's a bonus point for this map. otherwise, you can't earn many these days with a dead simple remake. it's not a bad map, it just feels like a map from an earlier age of doom mapping. it consists of 3 separate arenas:

first one - circle around the pissed-off barons until they have killed the caged revs, the barrier to the second arena will have lowered then. i returned later to circle on and serve them buckshot.

second one - kill the mancs on pedestals, and spiders will appear, duh. actually i searched for a way out with the mancs still alive because i didn't expect such a simple solution. there's a third wave - a cyb amidst, which kills the rest and is simple to do alone

third one - a circular arena with a mastermind stuck on a platform. punched her to death, revenants burst in, eat plasma and rockets

exit - 2 viles in the exit room, shoot them from the entrance.

[Pirx]

rileymartin said:

I suggest you modify Smooth Doom to remove the SS and Baron as it will mess up those enemies which are new in the wad.

thanks, i was sure that's because of smooth doom. ketchup and perkristian's hi res sounds mess them up too. i play bloodstain now as it is, with gzdoom.

rileymartin said:

I just skipped to the elevator part and did it with the SSG. You don't need the Plasma Gun to clear that section, it just makes it trivially easy.

that's right, just shoot the caco when it appears and it's dead when the next one comes, so you don't get blocked in that shaft.

[baja blast rd.]

map08

Strong map. Plays well, looks good. First off, let's get the bad out of the way: those cacodemons behind the blue key door look downright ridiculous obstructed by blocking lines. I'm not sure what the point of using them as big-headed hell knights is. To force the player to enter the room to fight them, I suppose, but in that case why not use hell knights. Anyway, this setup is done much more effectively in the last area, which is full of caged revenants. This is probably the second most dangerous encounter in the map, a traditional <3 incidental <3 setup where monsters are restricted -- naturally, not with odd blocking lines -- to prevent them from being kited to chokepoints.

In a way, the manc-caco and cyberdemon encounters take what map07 attempted to do but do it a lot better. The cacos complement the mancs well, occupying (infinitely tall) space that at least demands the player pay attention to them, approaching from a Z-height that prevents easy infighting. The cyberdemon is just for show, but it can't be cheesed so comically, and it poses a serious threat for the short time that the player might try to escape the small room from which it's triggered.

Encounters seem to have taken a step up in terms of creativity. The pinky-AV duel is probably #1 on that regard, a big twist on the most traditional of berserk setuos. It seems like the player really should attempt to GTFO the nukage pool instead of fighting, because the archvile can target you even directly beneath the switch. There are a few hitscanner placements that seem to exist purely for amusement -- the gangs at the start and in the last area. Both can be readily made to destroy themselves through infighting. It seems like an attempt at comedy instead of inept placement, even though previous maps might make me less inclined to give the benefit of the doubt, because what else could it be, really? :) The map is book-ended by a couple of fun caco-centric encounters. A freeform melee/SSG brawl with imps at the beginning in an asymmetric area, one of those organic can't-fail setups; and oh, that ending. The ending is probably the meanest thing in the mapset so far, with that sneaky caco that warps behind you to prevent you from scurrying away. That caco is the MVP of the mapset so far (Most Vicious Placement?).

[Demon of the Well]

The responses here are not 'glaringly negative', at least not thus far. For comparison, one might peruse the Hell Revealed thread, on the whole it did not fare so well in most players' estimation, barring a few iconic maps which are and probably will continue to be widely popular/revered in the community at large. All things considered, I reckon we are a nice, cuddly, snuggly group (probably too much so in the eyes of some)--even the worst WAD we've played to date, Monochrome Mapping Project, received a pretty gentle treatment I'd say, probably because most folks realized that it was mostly made out of a lot of authors' first real maps, betokening a realistic downshift in expectations.

Anyway, back in the saddle for a time....

Map 03 -- Conquered Quarters - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Looking up a bit here. This is another smallscale 'village' plan, evidently a security checkpoint of sorts as the ending sequence suggests, built of a handful of squat square buildings and a few peripheral areas, crawling with low-level hellspawn ripe for the slaughter. Opening the first latch presents a gaggle of imps to be beaten back with the shotgun, and from that point on there is scope for playing aggressively enough that you hardly need to let your finger off of the trigger (though the fact that I've played this map before no doubt informs my impression in this regard). The monster placement style here remains simplistic and dense, with bodies packed into each chamber or other significant geographical space (ledge, yard, etc.), but proceedings here feel a bit more lively and organic than in the previous two maps, which I'd attribute to a pronounced presence of elevated snipers, and to the fact that most of the monsters are, at least theoretically, free to traverse the level--there is an inexplicable blocking line just across the threshold of the latch leading into the final area (one which will only impact play in some really weird/unlikely scenarios, though, in fairness), and of course the shitheads on the other side of the bridge in the southerly split-level building can't cross under it, but for the most part you can bring everyone out into the main yard to play if so inclined, which helps add some zest and replayability. The imps/demons in the central blockhouse can be a bit of a drag, but you can mitigate this somewhat by dragging them down and out while you're engaged in other things (getting the SSG, etc.). An easy improvement to that setup would probably be to have the lifts triggerable by motion from the top, so that they might gradually let themselves out once roused.

That aside, the most notable aspect of the level as far as the combat goes is naturally the introduction of one of the set's new foes, that being the Z-Sec zombie (a concept originating in DooM III, for all 2 of you reading who may not know that), a squad of which guards the checkpoint at the level's end. These fellows replace the SS Nazi and essentially behave as such (i.e. they fire in a continuous, rhythmic pattern until their target dies or escapes their line of sight), but are far more formidable, wielding the same model shotgun as the former human sergeants and possessing enough HP that a shell from your own shotgun will simply not suffice to take them down. These guys have the potential to be really dangerous, as they break away somewhat from the traditional hitscan/glass-cannon template for zombies in Doom games, meaning it's much riskier to try to muscle them out of the way on the run, particularly early in a level when you may be lightly armed. Their extra hardiness also lends them much potential for spiteful usage in close-quarters ambushes, as can be seen here in their introduction--on the UV skill level, you need to be pretty healthy to soundly weather this one. Well, that, or know about the hard-counter secret....

Another interesting point about the design in Bloodstain, that: a goodly number of the secrets are not framed so much as extra bonuses, but rather as part of the 'intended' route. You aren't expected to find keys behind unmarked walls or anything like that (at least not that I've seen so far!), but many of the fight designs seem to be balanced in such a way that they assume the player will find the secrets (or, perhaps, that s/he already knows about them, suggesting a UVmax-targeted mindset). In some cases, the difference in the experience can be quite pronounced--the blursphere/soulsphere secret here makes the Z-Sec intro easy as pie, but without it the fight is pretty rough, with an almost unavoidable damage-tax element. This design style--where knowing the secrets is crucial to experiential smoothness and real 'mastery' of a given map--is again markedly old-fashioned in cast, and I've no doubt it will really skew the experience that some players have, particularly from pistol-starts and on higher difficulties, especially considering that this particular slant is very nearly a proper taboo from a number of more modern design sensibilities. Incidentally, I quite like both of the secrets here, they both offer some additional entertainment value on top of the purely material benefit of the items they contain--the telefrag chain in one case and the button-hunt with stinger design in the other--and that extra something-something is generally the best kind of reward.

[Demon of the Well]

Oh, yes, and I have seen and noted the advice about playing on HMP and/or doing a continuous run, for the record. I have every intention of sticking with UV, if for no other reason than these threads are generally more interesting when a range of different skill settings are represented, and most folks seem to be opting for HMP this time (that, and I have a touch of the 'ol bloodlust, I admit). If it really ends up getting that bad in terms of slogginess I might consider starting to use carryovers at some point, though, not something I've done in quite some time, to my recollection.

Map 04 -- Fallout Shelter - 103% Kills / 100% Secrets
And a bit livelier still. The pistol-start here certainly has a bit more edge to it than what's come before, prompting the player to dance through a milling crowd of undead in order to reach the weapons needed in order to clear out the first room (I don't care how tough you are, the pistol just isn't going to cut it here). The imps that are active from the moment the map loads are what really makes this work (they give you no real time in order to quietly study your surroundings before beginning to move/act), of course, but it's the Z-Sec, the pinkies, and the larger throng of imps to the left that are the lynchpin of the fight, a good example of the mapset's propensity for densely-packed monster placement working in its favor. One general observation I would have so far is that Bloodstain (on UV) often sinks or swims by this dense placement--sometimes it totally makes the map, sometimes it totally hamstrings it. The situation of architecture and geometry as well as the placement of elements like blocking lines and such naturally have a lot to do with this in any given case, as well, but it's interesting how one repeated design element can go so right in some instances and so wrong in others, with the differences between them in terms of overall execution often being fairly small.

In "Living Quarters" I think the angle mostly works pretty well. Even moreso than in previous maps, it's a decidedly monster-rich space considering its small size, and the trick du jour here is piling bodies on you in small/uncomfortable spaces which can quickly overwhelm you unless you act with decisiveness and foresight. The rub here, I think, is that all of the traps are really supposed to be blatantly obvious--the switch at the end of the suspiciously long/featureless hallway in the southern sector of the base, the narrow, windowed dogleg corridor leading to the SSG on its plinth, and of course the ominously dark upstairs room nearby--so that you can, in a sense, begin solving them before they even spring, through the power of prediction and planning. This is a game element that will always be present to some greater or lesser degree in DooM, of course, but seeing it brought to the fore like this is, again, something of an oldschool sensibility (yes, I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record at this point), in contrast to the modern school of design which often leans more heavily on sudden or initially unmanageable developments in order to force constant movement from the player. Most of the traps here, by contrast (bearing in mind this is only map 04), are made to be beaten with careful positional play, outrunning the southern hallway trap, tiptoeing through the dark room to unleash the zombies in manageable chunks, and (my favorite) gritting your teeth and gluing yourself to the one tiny piece of cover while you work the corner with your new boomstick in the SSG trap. It is not terribly sophisticated stuff, but it's bloody and it works.

We also see the game's first arch-vile here, situated in a vulture capacity in a room where he's inconvenient/unsatisfying (though still quite possible) to simply camp-snipe, prompting you to make a bolder play by storming the lower area through one of the two routes available at that point. Again, very simple, but satisfying. The secret-as-part-of-normal-route element is also at play again here, via the handy RL secret, which oddly also segues directly into the soulsphere secret (I'm not sure there's actually another way out of the pit BUT the 'porter in the soulsphere secret, come to think of it). Dig the combat armor secret, too--cheeky as hell, Pipicz, cheeky as hell.

Map 05 -- The Intersection - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
.....aaaaaaand IDMUS within 60 seconds. That's Montimap levels of BGM selection prowess, right there. Bravo.

So, to keep on with an idea I've already been blathering on about all evening, we have that first berserk pack secret, which is presumably intended mainly to help players recover from the hitscan attrition that will likely be soaked in the first gunfight vs. entrenched zombies in the titular Intersection, thus stabilizing momentum--again, something that's 'supposed' to be found, in line with the classic trope of 'always check what's behind you at mapstart.' As a fringe benefit, it's also good for the amusing trooper-gibbing chain in the dilapidated techhall right afterwards, which to me immediately reads like an Alien Vendetta reference, though perhaps your mileage may vary in that regard. We might also consider the early rocket launcher found in the level's (rather obvious) second secret, which greatly eases the liquidation of the arch-vile admin snugly ensconced in his cubicle in the western computer room, as well as the scenario in the toxic cistern behind the last yellow-locked latch.

For my part, I don't necessarily object to this type of map balancing (i.e. where secrets are not merely helpful bonuses, but can seriously impact the experience in some cases), although the utility of that first RL does sort of frame a recurrent issue with what I've played of the mapset--without that first RL to expedite the process, the arch-vile fight sucks. He can't reach you, and it's impractical to rush him, so the battle is a rote exchange of impotent glares on his part and gunshots and dainty little sidesteps on your part, with no significant element of threat or dynamism at play. It's a fight where literally the only thing on the line is runtime; with the RL in hand this probably doesn't register much, but either way it's a questionable inclusion. Not every step of the journey needs to be terribly involved like this; it's bad for pacing. On the other side of the coin, I think the toxic cistern room is a more interesting proposition (somewhat janky PE placement aside) in the scheme of the overall balance--if you come into it with a lot of momentum or after having found the level's secrets, you have options on how to tackle it, since you'll be more credibly equipped to engage the arachnatrons in a battle of artillery while delicately leveraging the chrome switchplate for cover (but watch out for those shit-ass specters teasing your autoaim down in the drink!), and of course options are generally a good thing. In this case, though, Pipicz has also planned a scenario for a player who comes into the room without an RL or other perks, a sort of brash dash that turns loose additional snipers while netting an RL and a soulsphere, leaving the player back at square one with more of the aforesaid options. Neat. Probably takes a bit of trial and error to work that out, mind you, but again, that's not a design style I'm inclined to see as fundamentally wrong or the like.

On the whole, in this short map we see elements of both what does and doesn't work in the mapset within virtual feet of one another, and so in that regard I suppose it's sort of like an early game posterchild, though I reckon that most other maps in E1 are more fun to actually play (separated exchanges have never been my thing). Other than that, not much of remark here.

[NuMetalManiak]

Demon of the Well said:

Map 05 -- The Intersection - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
.....aaaaaaand IDMUS within 60 seconds. That's Montimap levels of BGM selection prowess, right there. Bravo.

Called it. But then again I hated it too so even I understand what the deal is.

MAP08 Toxic Sea

Am liking what I'm dealing with so far. The surprise trap that puts me in the middle of the room was neat, and then that one switch with archie to watch for while demons are nearby too. The last few rooms had some good combat, culminating in a cyberdemon. Very well-designed to modern standards as well. From here I'm pretty sure things get better as well.

[KBlaney]

Map 7: Ok, level starts me out with a switch. Pressing it doesn't work. * fires pistol * Well... that's a Mastermind somewhere in here. From there, however the level is a pretty linear series of arena fights against a small number of monsters each time. The part about my strategy I was most proud of here was managing to time my teleport just right to telefrag the cyberdemon in the second arena. Coming off of Ancient Aliens, which had a lot of cyberdemon (Lord Xenu) telefrag kills, this one felt a lot more earned because the cyberdemon is not bound to a single area here and you have to time it just right. Fittingly the Mastermind teased in the beginning can easily be cheesed and taken out with just a few well placed shotgun shells so the things that had me most worried in this level turned out to be largely nothing.

Map 8: I don't know why, but I generally instantly dislike levels that start with monsters facing you. That said, after the first encounter with a few imps this level really hits its stride with all of the hitscan infighting. My experience with the end is particularly notable because I heard the cyberdemon spawn in the central room (figuring the switch I just hit had opened the door to the exit). Not wanting to fight him, I run by onto the bridge only for two cacos to spawn. “Oh well, the exit is right there,” I think, “Just go for it.” And then an archvile spawns in front of me. I just barely managed to hit the switch before the vile blew me up.

[Paul977]

I'm curious to know what do you guys mean for 'modern standards'. Which kind of features a map should have to enter into that category ?

[Spectre01]

Demon of the Well said:

.....aaaaaaand IDMUS within 60 seconds. That's Montimap levels of BGM selection prowess, right there. Bravo.

Not a lot of Blur fans here it seems. :P I thought the midi was alright and I didn't even make the connection with "that song where the guy yells 'Woo Hoo!'"

[Jayextee]

MAP08 - TOXIC SEA

Spoilers: you can walk in it fine. Toxic, my ass.

As soon as the first shot inevitably rings out at the cluster of imps ambushing your entry, the familiar roar of a waking Cyberdemon.

I know the drill here, waking them up as soon as possible with a view to them roaming and ensuring a successful teleport in when sprung. However, it can take the surprise out of proceedings, especially if there's ample space to fight and enough warning signs telegraphing things. And, you know, a giant double-door with a rocket launcher and ammo right in front of it acted as the latter, granting access later to the former. Wondering if 'no real surprises' is the leitmotif of this map set?

Not actually a bad level. Had another death here (I'm at 2, I think) due to being surprised a little by the Archvile overlooking the Demon pen. Simply put, I couldn't find adequate cover in time; but was very prepared on my second run. Both sides of the eventual Cyberdemon arena were so-so, SSG bait Revenants and a cluster of soldiers that made for short work with a couple of rockets. Cyberdemon fight felt pointless (but I filled him with plasma ANYWAY), and the bridge toward the end? Well, I sprinted past the Cacodemons *and* the rising Archvile to bang the exit switch as the flames rose. AGAIN.

Actually not a terrible level; once more a short one, and kept me on my toes enough. Just a little predictable.

[sudo459]

rileymartin said:

Which difficulty did you play on and did you pistol start?

UV and yes, but really don't see why it matters.

[Aquanet]

MAP08: Toxic Sea

Zdoom, UV, pistol start. Ammo was tight but right.

Blur + berserk = blurserk

The opening encounter and the one in the outdoor room that teleports you to its center were dynamic and fun. In the two tech-room areas (the one immediately off the starting area and the other containing the demon/arch vile pit), some combination of stairs and/or maybe monster blocking lines kept some of the hell knights, revenants and imps unnecessarily pinned in (useful little thread on stairs and monsters). The pretend blast door with the seam in the middle you never see open is cool. All it takes is little touches. Overall, the architecture is some of the more cohesive in the wad so far, and playful, to wit, the cute tanker ship with smoke stacks visible from an outdoor walkway.

Again, as in previous levels, there are several revenants in turrets that are hard to see. They caused me the greatest difficulty and dislike. The room near the end chock full of hitscanners made for some funny infighting.

I'm pretty skeptical of exit switch traps you can run right past, as if they're attempting to make up for a lack of climax in the meat of the level.

I'm fine with non-damaging nukage. Isn't doomguy wearing boots, and wouldn't they be designed to handle some incidental sludge?

[mouldy]

MAP08 - "Toxic Sea”

Some cowardly monsters in this map, too scared to come and chase after me. I liked the cheeky teleport trap, and the nautical scenery. Another surprise cyberdemon, but not too deadly besides him camping the doorway. Talking of cheeky, that archvile in the exit room could have been quite nasty. As it was I had enough time to press the exit before he fried me, so see yer later sucker.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP08: Toxic Sea
100% kills, 2/2 secrets

Getting better, and the start is pretty strong through the fight for the blue key. Others have commented on the large amount of block monster lines, and it really shows in the room behind the blue door... the hell knights can't walk through the door, the cacos can't go down the stairs or windows to the hell knights, and the imps/revs in the next room can't follow either! The surprise AV in the telegraphed berserk/pinkie pit is the most dangerous thing in the map, and I did like the giant infight hitscanner room, always fun.

[Benjogami]

MAP08: Toxic Sea

UV FDA 82% kills 50% secrets

Decided to continue on UV and just deal with it for as long as I feel like it, cause maps 6 and 7 were fun on UV. Might switch to continuous and drop the FDAs if it gets too gross.

Pretty good map. Good midi choice. I've heard it before but I can't place it. I also really liked the pistons and the distant ship as decoration choices. They help establish a sense of place better than the generic-but-good-looking detailing used so far in the wad. Just a couple of cool touches like that can tie it all together!

Aside from the few monster blocking issues already noted, the fights were otherwise good in this one. I had some foreknowledge from watching Rayzik's stream, and played like a wimp, and still did very poorly. :P The AV/demon pit was a cool trap but I think he should've really committed to it: lock the player down there for a moment, give some cover, maybe remove some of the demons. Or simply trigger the trap before the switch is pressed. Because as it is, the only good strat is to just leave, since you can't avoid getting wrecked by the AV while you're in the pit.

The final area fighting was good, and I even liked the one revenant that was blocked in by one of the switches! Otherwise, the revs, etc were free to chase the player around, with the annoying caged revs constantly pressuring. There's a lot of stuff you can run past after you hit the 2 switches to open the exit, which is fine with me.

[joe-ilya]

MAP07

Boring, starts off in a everlong lasting waiting sequence, after spinning right round for about a minute the bars finally lower, guess what's next? A lame "Dead Simple" ripoff, if I ever wanted to play "Dead Simple" I'd just play the original fucking map.
Then a cyber comes in and you can easily telefrag it and you have to get keys in this quad-symmetric arena and go to the next fight which includes a stuck spider mastermind, then some revenants spawn in and kill it for you, get the guarded key and pass through a couple of cliche AVs.

0/5

[SoundofDoomDoors]

MAP08: Toxic Sea
100% Kills/100% Secrets/0 Deaths (5 total)

-That was fun. The big open fight for the blue key was especially entertaining.
-Then I got a blue armor and settled in for the rest of the level.
-I no trouble with the ending archvile (expected since I was missed a monster with 100% secrets + last map).
-The cacodemons dealt more damage to me than the rest of the level combined though.
-Toothless cyberdemon. Two doors make it easy to escape when he tries to camp you.
-I vastly prefer revenants in dark cubbieholes versus chaingunners. It's easier to track the skeletons back to their hiding places thanks to their projectiles.
-That hitscanner room at the end was hilarious. I fired one shot, took cover, and listened to them murder each other. I think pipicz expected me to fight, judging by the secret in that room.
Overall: I had fun. The more open spaces are welcome. Sometimes I still have to door camp before I get in a room, but at least I get to run around afterward.

[Spectre01]

What's with all the folks rushing the exit? It doesn't count unless you get those sweet 100% kills!

[baja blast rd.]

Oh yeah I recorded a demo of map08 too. Dedicated to the cacodemons in the last trap. http://www.mediafire.com/download/kt6foffbh9asexa/bstain08_rdwpa_demo.lmp